Trade Barlow!

[49ersFaithful]

i know this sounds outrageous......but it shouldnt!

Barlow = no hearst, no beasley, 1-1,000yard season , FAT CONTRACT

trade to Pittsburgh Steelers, for 1st or second, @#6 pick vd/hawk/huff, @#22 pick deangelo, @#32 pick CB, or WR Moss, Gore and hick are going to start anyway!

Barlow is a between the tackles, slow decisive runner, pounder but agile, belongs with a pounder type team, the steelers. Or anyone, Shanahan would take him, maybe miami too, maybe Green Bay too! we have options, we just have to pull the trigger, dont wait to the end of this season where his value has diminished and all we can get is a 7th or worse nothing!

Feedback please, this 49er message board is the best thing since Ken Norton punching the Goal Post the year we had the #1 Defense! (will it ever happen again?)

[SeaChicken]

That fat contract you reference is exactly why trading Barlow would be a very bad idea.

[dan49fan]

i know this sounds outrageous......but it shouldnt!

Barlow = no hearst, no beasley, 1-1,000yard season , FAT CONTRACT

trade to Pittsburgh Steelers, for 1st or second, @#6 pick vd/hawk/huff, @#22 pick deangelo, @#32 pick CB, or WR Moss, Gore and hick are going to start anyway!

Barlow is a between the tackles, slow decisive runner, pounder but agile, belongs with a pounder type team, the steelers. Or anyone, Shanahan would take him, maybe miami too, maybe Green Bay too! we have options, we just have to pull the trigger, dont wait to the end of this season where his value has diminished and all we can get is a 7th or worse nothing!

Feedback please, this 49er message board is the best thing since Ken Norton punching the Goal Post the year we had the #1 Defense! (will it ever happen again?)


Maybe not quite that good but i agree 100%. Ive wanted to trade barlow for the last two years.l but i dont think any team would take him for more than a third rounder.

[dan49fan]

That fat contract you reference is exactly why trading Barlow would be a very bad idea.


hey seahawk guy get out of this message board go back with the rest of your Hawks. and i think you got it flipped. thats why they should trade him.

[D-Man]

We don't need to make any decisions that hit our cap now that we're out of "cap hell." Let's get a good, consistent offensive TEAM going before we start dumping key players.

D

[Ninerfan0850]

That fat contract you reference is exactly why trading Barlow would be a very bad idea.
Ding Ding Ding...... Gene tell him what he's won!!

[49ers4life226]

I agree with you barlow has barley contributed to the offence over the past two years and it would be nice if we could get a 4th rounder for him

[49ersFaithful]

if you think about it, by losing barlow we dont really lose anything, but by getting someone in return we fill a need, lose a lil depth to fill a glaring need (safety, DE,CB,OLB,WR in the 3rd to late rounds)

[Joe 2 Cool]

It can't hurt to be "discreet" and shop him, however I think with the improved line we will have this year, it will be best to give him another season and see if he can do it. If he does his stock would go up, if not then you can still sell the idea that your handing it over to Gore the younger proven back. :whistling:

[Nikko]

I doubt a team would give more then a 5th-6th for him.

[r0b81]

That would be a pretty big cap hit wouldnt it?

[ni9el'ers]

i agree.i am from memphis. deangelo is amazing.

[nolandynasty86]

I am all for shipping this guy out of town, but to say we would get a 2nd round pick is rediculous. We would be lucky for a 4th.

In other words, since the return is not that great, keep the guy, ease the transition to Gore, then get rid of him later or re-structure the contract.

agreed. Barlow is just not a tradeable commodity. I can't see why anybody would want him, big contract, small numbers/talent. Might as well keep him, its not like gore will go all season without getting injured. Hes good catching passes out of the backfield at least. better blocker than gore also is what ive heard.

[sfrichcity]

Could we try and trade Barlow,Rumph,and Kwame to San Diego for a 2nd round pick. Cause if we don't Vernon Davis @6 then we get Huff and @22 we get manny lawson and then in the 2nd round we get a good TE like a Mercedes Lewis or BPA.

[Ace Matherton]

i know this sounds outrageous......but it shouldnt!

Barlow = no hearst, no beasley, 1-1,000yard season , FAT CONTRACT

trade to Pittsburgh Steelers, for 1st or second, @#6 pick vd/hawk/huff, @#22 pick deangelo, @#32 pick CB, or WR Moss, Gore and hick are going to start anyway!

Barlow is a between the tackles, slow decisive runner, pounder but agile, belongs with a pounder type team, the steelers. Or anyone, Shanahan would take him, maybe miami too, maybe Green Bay too! we have options, we just have to pull the trigger, dont wait to the end of this season where his value has diminished and all we can get is a 7th or worse nothing!

Feedback please, this 49er message board is the best thing since Ken Norton punching the Goal Post the year we had the #1 Defense! (will it ever happen again?)
The only thing outrageous about that is thinking Barlow would net a 1st or 2nd. You had all the reasons we should not keep him why would anyone want him then? He is a pounder but last i checked we were to be a power running team this year and trading him would result in a huge cap hit for the remaider of his contract further limiting the quality of players we can sign in the future.

[Bakedpotato41]

Im pretty sure trading Barlow would cause a big cap hit. i dont think its really worth it.

[Kamron]

Shows how much you know about football by saying getting a 1st or 2nd.....

[49er_Rick]

Barlow is a between the tackles, slow decisive runner, pounder but agile, belongs with a pounder type team, the steelers. Or anyone, Shanahan would take him, maybe miami too, maybe Green Bay too! we have options, we just have to pull the trigger, dont wait to the end of this season where his value has diminished and all we can get is a 7th or worse nothing!

Okay... let's consider what you're asking for.

1. If Barlow is a hesitant (studder steping), between the tackles, slow decisive runner... why would any team want him? Even a pounding team like the Steelers want a guy like The Bus who is big but can move very well for a big guy. So that point doesn't fly. Not to mention how it would affect our salary cap or whatever.

2. Are you seriously ready to have Gore in the backfield trying to pick up a blitzing linebacker and protect our franchise QB? I hope not.

What if Gore goes down? Do you really want to start Maurice Hicks or worse a rookie that we draft in the 3 round or later? Gore does have a tremendous history of injury and surgeries.

Barlow certainly isn't the best we've ever had, but with this much improved and healthy line he will do a very good job. He will of course have to share with Gore who will be a good back up until we draft a serious RB instead of a project.

Everyone knows that we took a huge chance that Gore would stay healthy and so far it's paid off, but until he rushes for over a 1000 yards as the starter and stays healthy and plays all 16 games then I say that we don't have our franchise RB just yet.

I believe that we will address the D mostly with the exception of VD in this draft and next season we will be looking for 2 kinds of players. A. A franchise RB and B a franchise WR.

Go Niners!

[niners25]

nobody is going to give up a first or second for Barlow

[NinerCubBoiler]

nobody is going to give up a first or second for Barlow
or a 3rd or a 4th:wink:

[felixdakatt]

Draft Davis at 6th, DeAngelo Williams at 22, trade Barlow for Lelie even up. That would give us a new starting WR, starting RB, and starting TE on offense.:unsure:

[NinerCubBoiler]

Draft Davis at 6th, DeAngelo Williams at 22, trade Barlow for Lelie even up. That would give us a new starting WR, starting RB, and starting TE on offense.:unsure:
Nobody wants barlow's huge contract... especially denver... they are in salary cap hell right now

[felixdakatt]

Nobody wants barlow's huge contract... especially denver... they are in salary cap hell right now
Obviously both contracts would have to be renegotiated. Lelie is in the last year of his deal, so trading a starting RB fo ra 1-year wonder would be stupid. It would have to be a sign and swap. personally, I think Lelie is soft, but the deal does make some sense.

[NinerCubBoiler]

Obviously both contracts would have to be renegotiated. Lelie is in the last year of his deal, so trading a starting RB fo ra 1-year wonder would be stupid. It would have to be a sign and swap. personally, I think Lelie is soft, but the deal does make some sense.

I'm not saying that the trade would not be equal but Lelie will hit FA next season and there is no way Barlow would rework his contract

[felixdakatt]

I'm not saying that the trade would not be equal but Lelie will hit FA next season and there is no way Barlow would rework his contract
And you say that based on what.... assumption? Why wouldn't he rework his contract if it meant he'd have the chance to start somewhere else? Shanny liked Barlow better than any other RB in that draft, and their best two RBs are Tatum Bell and Ron Dayne now. The move would give Lelie a chance to go to a new team, which he wants desperately, and Barlow a chance to start for a coach that loves him. Sign and swap, and Lelie won't be a FA. :wink:

[Mudd]

I'm not saying that the trade would not be equal but Lelie will hit FA next season and there is no way Barlow would rework his contract
And the fact that Lelie is just as worthless as Barlow.

Some of the scenario's in this thread are laughable. Barlow for a first or second? Why would a team do that? It's totally rediculous. Drafting a TE and RB in the first round? You do realize we have to play defense right? And on top of that, Lawson falling to the second? We'll be luck if Lawson falls to us at #22.

Anyway, I can't wait for this draft to be over. At this point, just not seeing the rediculousness is going to be more of a relief than the excitement of the two new starters we are going to get. The bad thing is we will have to listen to all the same people talking about how bad of a job Nolan did. :wacko:

[NinerCubBoiler]

And you say that based on what.... assumption? Why wouldn't he rework his contract if it meant he'd have the chance to start somewhere else? Shanny liked Barlow better than any other RB in that draft, and their best two RBs are Tatum Bell and Ron Dayne now. The move would give Lelie a chance to go to a new team, which he wants desperately, and Barlow a chance to start for a coach that loves him. Sign and swap, and Lelie won't be a FA. :wink:

Barlow got his pay day (and done nothing for it) and Im guessing there is no way he would rework it. There are too many "ifs" in this situation and Tatum Bell is a good back and Ron Dayne seems to have had a bit of a comeback since being with Denver so why would they want another under producing back. I understand their need to unload Lelie but I suspect he will be gone via a draft day trade...

[NinerCubBoiler]

And the fact that Lelie is just as worthless as Barlow.

Some of the scenario's in this thread are laughable. Barlow for a first or second? Why would a team do that? It's totally rediculous. Drafting a TE and RB in the first round? You do realize we have to play defense right? And on top of that, Lawson falling to the second? We'll be luck if Lawson falls to us at #22.

Anyway, I can't wait for this draft to be over. At this point, just not seeing the rediculousness is going to be more of a relief than the excitement of the two new starters we are going to get. The bad thing is we will have to listen to all the same people talking about how bad of a job Nolan did. :wacko:
I know... will the draft just get here already! Yes I think both Lelie and Barlow are equal... equally crappy... I don't want barlow's roll on this team anything other than a supplement to Gore and Hicks (backs that want to earn their keep) I also hate that the MB is new I end up reading so many stupid newbie threads that it makes me want to punch a baby (j/j) I recognize many old names but still there should be someway to show who has been here and who is really a first time poster

[Mudd]

I know... will the draft just get here already! Yes I think both Lelie and Barlow are equal... equally crappy... I don't want barlow's roll on this team anything other than a supplement to Gore and Hicks (backs that want to earn their keep) I also hate that the MB is new I end up reading so many stupid newbie threads that it makes me want to punch a baby (j/j) I recognize many old names but still there should be someway to show who has been here and who is really a first time poster
You hit the nail on the head with everything here. It's funny the people coming out of the woodwork.

[NinerCubBoiler]

You hit the nail on the head with everything here. It's funny the people coming out of the woodwork.
glad somebody agrees with me... by the way what happened to the tractor picture? I went with a new name and a new picture... used to be ggerdom with a scarface pic

[Nevyn]

1) The knock on Barlow is that he doesn't grind out the tough yards after contact. Not ideal for a Jerome Bettis replacement.

2) With a big contract and 2 years of bad production, we could not get a day 1 pick for him from anyone. At best a 6th.

3) Trading Barlow means a big time cap hit right away.

At this stage, he is worth more as a depth running back than as trade bait, even if we are overpaying for that service.

[NinerCubBoiler]

1) The knock on Barlow is that he doesn't grind out the tough yards after contact. Not ideal for a Jerome Bettis replacement.

2) With a big contract and 2 years of bad production, we could not get a day 1 pick for him from anyone. At best a 6th.

3) Trading Barlow means a big time cap hit right away.

At this stage, he is worth more as a depth running back than as trade bait, even if we are overpaying for that service.
Thats what i've been preaching... nobody will want him especially the broncos because they can't afford to

[ninersfan68]

more cap room is a bad thing?

[NinerCubBoiler]

more cap room is a bad thing?
ummm no.... what was this in reply to?

[felixdakatt]

I know... will the draft just get here already! Yes I think both Lelie and Barlow are equal... equally crappy... I don't want barlow's roll on this team anything other than a supplement to Gore and Hicks (backs that want to earn their keep) I also hate that the MB is new I end up reading so many stupid newbie threads that it makes me want to punch a baby (j/j) I recognize many old names but still there should be someway to show who has been here and who is really a first time poster
Ha haa... agreed. I know it's wishful thinking. I'm not even a fan of Lelie, but I have a real disdain for Barlow after watching him sanbag it for an entire year. Lelie is as soft as they come at WR. The guy should be running track, not catching footballs, but our options are limited at WR.

[NinerCubBoiler]

Ha haa... agreed. I know it's wishful thinking. I'm not even a fan of Lelie, but I have a real disdain for Barlow after watching him sanbag it for an entire year. Lelie is as soft as they come at WR. The guy should be running track, not catching footballs, but our options are limited at WR.

I think if we can pick up VD, not only does our passing game improve our running game also improves from the threat of the pass triple threat of VD Battle and Bryant

[bc_ninerfan]

i know this sounds outrageous......but it shouldnt!

Barlow = no hearst, no beasley, 1-1,000yard season , FAT CONTRACT

trade to Pittsburgh Steelers, for 1st or second, @#6 pick vd/hawk/huff, @#22 pick deangelo, @#32 pick CB, or WR Moss, Gore and hick are going to start anyway!

Barlow is a between the tackles, slow decisive runner, pounder but agile, belongs with a pounder type team, the steelers. Or anyone, Shanahan would take him, maybe miami too, maybe Green Bay too! we have options, we just have to pull the trigger, dont wait to the end of this season where his value has diminished and all we can get is a 7th or worse nothing!

Feedback please, this 49er message board is the best thing since Ken Norton punching the Goal Post the year we had the #1 Defense! (will it ever happen again?)

A FIRST OR SECOND?!?! you clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are not in touch with reality. we would be lucky to get a 4th for a guy who hasn't done anything in 2 years. Not to mention the fact that many have questioned the man's heart.

Maybe we can package Barlow and Otis Amey and get all of Pittsburgh's picks. That would be awesome!

[49ersFaithful]

When i originally posted this thread, i was at work and in a rush! When i stated that we should trade barlow for a 1st, i meant barlow and whatever we needed to package to get that pick.

To me, we should not have done the Denver Trade, and i know im the only one man enough on this MB to say it! to lose our #6 or #7 or whatever it was in the 2nd and 3rd round to move up 10-15 spots @ #22 to get what? this draft is so deep at some positions that we could have drafted VD with the 6th pick, and in the second round, one of the what 10 possible LB's with good overall grades or one of the 6 CB's. There's going to be a run on either Lb's Cb's or Te's and each one benefits us with getting any of the others. We could use all three positions and it was almost guaranteed with the structure of our picks that one of them would have fell at each pick to us.

What are we getting at #22 that we couldnt get early second? ANSWER THIS QUESTION BEFORE YOU RIP ME!!!!!

LB & CB are going to be there in the first and second, and we would have kept our additonal 3rd rounder. If we were getting SOMEONE @ #22 it would make sense, but to wait for whoever might be there, and at this point it is totally up in the air. i dont think you risk your draft on that hunch.

And ok, maybe my trade barlow thread was premature in a Salary Cap Standpoint, but that was with the assumption of getting a D. Williams in return and additional picks to fill more holes.....

I think we have to get a TE and WR in this draft that will play this season or it wont matter what we do on defense because our offense will be what?....dead last again! Alex Smith needs talent surrounding him, end of story! Im not saying Barlow is bad or useless, im saying he' s not worth the money he's making vs. his actual playing time, split between to younger quicker faster backs, and with the ability to adress the need before the season starts with the draft and Free agency.

I do know my football, and we are all rooting for the same teams, why the hate? your not gonna come to hayward and see me about nothing, nor will you come up to my seats @ CANDLESTICK and tell me to my face! dont be message board thugs, we dont respect them, (or raider fans!):angry:

[bc_ninerfan]

relax bra!!!!! I love Hayward... I once nailed a fat chick from hayward. And hey, one of my favorite mexican food joints is there. so chill.

I agree, we are all in it together. GO NINERS right?

I was just frustrated that I spent my time reading a post that said we should an overpaid RB (who doesn't care) to a team like Pittburgh. After having the Bus play hurt for the past 3 years, giving his all every week. I doubt that they would want a prima-donna like Barlow that hasn't run hard in 2 years. The market for Barlow isn't there my man! I doubt some teams, considering his contract, would give up a 6th rounder for the guy.... and certainly not Pittsburgh, who can get a franchise back in the first round (with the pick we would get for Barlow).

Relax Bra! But I agree, it would have been nice getting a 1st rounder for a piece of trash!

[Mr Spoons]

When i originally posted this thread, i was at work and in a rush! When i stated that we should trade barlow for a 1st, i meant barlow and whatever we needed to package to get that pick.

To me, we should not have done the Denver Trade, and i know im the only one man enough on this MB to say it! to lose our #6 or #7 or whatever it was in the 2nd and 3rd round to move up 10-15 spots @ #22 to get what? this draft is so deep at some positions that we could have drafted VD with the 6th pick, and in the second round, one of the what 10 possible LB's with good overall grades or one of the 6 CB's. There's going to be a run on either Lb's Cb's or Te's and each one benefits us with getting any of the others. We could use all three positions and it was almost guaranteed with the structure of our picks that one of them would have fell at each pick to us.

What are we getting at #22 that we couldnt get early second? ANSWER THIS QUESTION BEFORE YOU RIP ME!!!!!

LB & CB are going to be there in the first and second, and we would have kept our additonal 3rd rounder. If we were getting SOMEONE @ #22 it would make sense, but to wait for whoever might be there, and at this point it is totally up in the air. i dont think you risk your draft on that hunch.

And ok, maybe my trade barlow thread was premature in a Salary Cap Standpoint, but that was with the assumption of getting a D. Williams in return and additional picks to fill more holes.....

I think we have to get a TE and WR in this draft that will play this season or it wont matter what we do on defense because our offense will be what?....dead last again! Alex Smith needs talent surrounding him, end of story! Im not saying Barlow is bad or useless, im saying he' s not worth the money he's making vs. his actual playing time, split between to younger quicker faster backs, and with the ability to adress the need before the season starts with the draft and Free agency.

I do know my football, and we are all rooting for the same teams, why the hate? your not gonna come to hayward and see me about nothing, nor will you come up to my seats @ CANDLESTICK and tell me to my face! dont be message board thugs, we dont respect them, (or raider fans!):angry:

What are we getting at 22 that we wouldn't get at 37? Well, to accurately answer that would require knowing what Coach Nolan intends to draft where, which I think is fairly clear that no-one on here actually knows. Some people are suggesting DeAngelo, but I truly hope that I and, from what I can tell, the majority think and that is an OLB. It depends what mock you read, but the majority have most, if not all of the top 3-4 OLB prospects going by the Jets pick at 35. Sitting at 37 removes the ability for us to pick up one of these top prospects (in no particular order):

Manny Lawson
Kamerion Wimbley
Bobby Carpenter
Chad Greenway (? Nolan liked him at the Senior Bowl and we have interviewed him)

Some mocks have all the above gone before #22 (see my thread of Rick Gosselin's last mock).

If they are gone, we may also have a better shot at one of the top Safety or CB candidates:

Jason Allen
Donte Whitner
Ko Simpson
Jimmy Williams
Tye Hill
Antonio Cromartie
Richard Marshall

All the above supposes we take Vernon at #6, or we are taking two defensive players and have Hawk at #6. If we take Hawk and want an offensive player, then we have a more realistic shot at the following at #22 than #37:

DeAngelo Williams
Santonio Holmes
Chad Jackson
Leonard Pope
Marcedes Lewis

With the exception of maybe Manny or Wimbley, depending on who you believe about their prospects and maybe Marshall, all the others will be long gone by #37.

You are opposed to moving up. Ask yourself this - what would you have done if we had sat at #37, watched all those guys go off the board and got left with reaching for a LB or CB, or taking one who is on the 2nd tier of prospects, then finding that all our targets are gone at #68 too, and we either reach or pick a player we don't want, because I have seen mocks where exactly that happens?

I also think that, if you want opening day starters at TE and WR out of the weekend, then you are likely to be deeply disappointed. WRs very rarely have impact rookie seasons (you can probably count them on one hand), even if they are first rounders. It is unlikely that a WR from this current fairly weak class is going to come in and do a Moss/Rice/Harrison.

[Ace Matherton]

I agree with the Englishmen.
I like the pick because somewhere around pick 17 a run on either S/CB or OLB's will happen. Both needs for us, If all the S/Cb's are gone we go OLB or vice versa. I hated that we gave up the two and three round picks we had but I do agree the caliber of player we are recieving @22 "theoretically" trumps what we could get at the 37. Now of course we have to draft the right guy to make that assumption come true and thats the crap shoot. I am confident that we have 2-3 "guys" Nolan wants at that spot it may not be an OLB or DB but I'd bet whomever it is will be there for us to scoop up. I'm starting more and more to think this trade was done to have the litters pick at the remaining running backs.

[49ersFaithful]

No hard feeling guys!

These suggestions do make a lot of sense, but do you think we need OLB more than a corner. We never have been a bad run stopping defense. We have been bad at pass defense forever. We have been trying to fix our secondary since Merton Hanks retired! i feel, at #6 you help you QB, and at #37 you grab a Safety like whitner or allen, or corner like hill or joseph, the reality is, out of all the guys you listed @ #22 one of each group will fall to the #37, i dont know which one, but the 2 3rd rounds were very sexy pick in my opinion. Thats where i think a lot of value will be left, the later half of the first day. Anybody can pick the first round, what about the third! Does anyone remember when we drafted Peterson & Plummer, both are gone now! i think we go another direction this time around with TE and Safety or a non OSU CB.

At the end of this, either ill be really right, or really wrong, at the end of the season, i will be really right!

I dont feel that OLB is a big of need as DB is on our team. If Peterson didnt play that well last season and brandon moore did all you could ask for a back up, then how can a rookie step in and make that much mor of an impact at that position. right now we have no Free safety, mike adams is good but i like him as a nickel corner, Walt harris could be my Uncle (he's gettin up there, still good though, and we need veterans) Rumph is coming of an injury and he played Safety, he hasnt played CB fulltime since 04' somebody explain to me how OLB is a bigger need than DB, the rest of the starters fro last years secondary werent even on the opening day roster! also the worst past defense in Football!

rasheed, ulbrich, smith, moore, and Seigler (if he plays) can figure it out, we can grab an OLB later

I know my football!!!!:Guitar:

[jay_1699]

No hard feeling guys!

These suggestions do make a lot of sense, but do you think we need OLB more than a corner. We never have been a bad run stopping defense. We have been bad at pass defense forever. We have been trying to fix our secondary since Merton Hanks retired! i feel, at #6 you help you QB, and at #37 you grab a Safety like whitner or allen, or corner like hill or joseph, the reality is, out of all the guys you listed @ #22 one of each group will fall to the #37, i dont know which one, but the 2 3rd rounds were very sexy pick in my opinion. Thats where i think a lot of value will be left, the later half of the first day. Anybody can pick the first round, what about the third! Does anyone remember when we drafted Peterson & Plummer, both are gone now! i think we go another direction this time around with TE and Safety or a non OSU CB.

At the end of this, either ill be really right, or really wrong, at the end of the season, i will be really right!

I dont feel that OLB is a big of need as DB is on our team. If Peterson didnt play that well last season and brandon moore did all you could ask for a back up, then how can a rookie step in and make that much mor of an impact at that position. right now we have no Free safety, mike adams is good but i like him as a nickel corner, Walt harris could be my Uncle (he's gettin up there, still good though, and we need veterans) Rumph is coming of an injury and he played Safety, he hasnt played CB fulltime since 04' somebody explain to me how OLB is a bigger need than DB, the rest of the starters fro last years secondary werent even on the opening day roster! also the worst past defense in Football!

rasheed, ulbrich, smith, moore, and Seigler (if he plays) can figure it out, we can grab an OLB later

I know my football!!!!:Guitar:

I agree. We have moore at LOLB (not quite peterson, but good) and we can pick up and undersized DE/OLB for a pass rusher at ROLB later in the draft. Though I would still love to have a 2nd round pick so we could get VD, CB/safety and a manny lawson type outside rusher for ROLB......hopefully one of the better DE's, who are too small to play in a 4-3, will fall to us in round 3:-)

[bc_ninerfan]

Personally, I think that DB is a more pressing need. True we use 4 linebackers and are thin at that position, but we are thin at Db as well. I think what should play a big factor is the division we are in.

our seconday will be facing Boldin and Fitzgerald twice a year for the next 10 years. we will also be facing Holt, Bruce and the 3 really fast white dudes twice a year. we will also be playing Darrell Jackson and Jeremy Stevens (who is emerging) twice a year...

However, we will also have to stop Alexander, James and Steven Jackson.

BUT, I think that we are better at stopping the run and should go for a DB

[49ersFaithful]

im just glads you guys understand, even if it might not happen, you guys have eased my burden with your comments.

[kb4sf]

Maybe not quite that good but i agree 100%. Ive wanted to trade barlow for the last two years.l but i dont think any team would take him for more than a third rounder.

i would agree with that 100%.... very lucky to get a 2nd rnd pick if even 3rd... lol.. and at 22 i would not be picking up offense casue at 6 we will get VD so you have to go with D!!!!!

[Mr Spoons]

No hard feeling guys!

These suggestions do make a lot of sense, but do you think we need OLB more than a corner. We never have been a bad run stopping defense. We have been bad at pass defense forever. We have been trying to fix our secondary since Merton Hanks retired! i feel, at #6 you help you QB, and at #37 you grab a Safety like whitner or allen, or corner like hill or joseph, the reality is, out of all the guys you listed @ #22 one of each group will fall to the #37, i dont know which one, but the 2 3rd rounds were very sexy pick in my opinion. Thats where i think a lot of value will be left, the later half of the first day. Anybody can pick the first round, what about the third! Does anyone remember when we drafted Peterson & Plummer, both are gone now! i think we go another direction this time around with TE and Safety or a non OSU CB.

At the end of this, either ill be really right, or really wrong, at the end of the season, i will be really right!

I dont feel that OLB is a big of need as DB is on our team. If Peterson didnt play that well last season and brandon moore did all you could ask for a back up, then how can a rookie step in and make that much mor of an impact at that position. right now we have no Free safety, mike adams is good but i like him as a nickel corner, Walt harris could be my Uncle (he's gettin up there, still good though, and we need veterans) Rumph is coming of an injury and he played Safety, he hasnt played CB fulltime since 04' somebody explain to me how OLB is a bigger need than DB, the rest of the starters fro last years secondary werent even on the opening day roster! also the worst past defense in Football!

rasheed, ulbrich, smith, moore, and Seigler (if he plays) can figure it out, we can grab an OLB later

I know my football!!!!:Guitar:

What you are missing/forgetting is that in the 3-4, the OLB isn't just a run stopper. They are the primary sources of pass rush. Yes, the line porvide a push and you get blitzes, but the WOLB especially is the 4th man in the rush. Without a pass-rush, you get...well...our secondary last year. A good pass rush can make an OK secondary look a lot better. No pass-rush and it doesn't matter if you have Deion Sanders, Ronnie Lott, Carlton Williamson and Eric Wright back there. Give an NFL QB 6 or 7 seconds and he will tear you apart.

To update you, Siegler left last year and Rasheed is going this year (no contract offer from anybody including us). Moore might make the move to OLB, but he spent most of last year replacing Ulbrich at ILB not OLB, so if we make that swap, we still need depth at ILB. Maybe that is TJ Slaughter, maybe not.

Yes, we need a Free Safety, as Adams is not a starter-quality player, but we could possibly get Pat Watkins, Roman Harper or Anthony Smith in the 3rd round, although Whitner or Allen would be useful fallback positions if all the OLBs are gone at #22. But for the benefit of all the posters who keep saying it - NO, WE CAN'T JUST PICK UP 3-4 OLBS IN THE LATER ROUNDS. We're not talking depth, we're talking starters. It's virtually always a project, because so few colleges play 3-4, but do you want to take that chance with a 7th round athlete or a 1st round athlete to be your opening day starter? Also, the number of guys who fit is not that high, and when you consider Robert Mathis, what is too small for a 4-3 DE? There are rumours that Cincy are smitten with Kamerion Wimbley, one of the top 3-4 tweener prospects, but they play 4-3.

[Mr Spoons]

Personally, I think that DB is a more pressing need. True we use 4 linebackers and are thin at that position, but we are thin at Db as well. I think what should play a big factor is the division we are in.

our seconday will be facing Boldin and Fitzgerald twice a year for the next 10 years. we will also be facing Holt, Bruce and the 3 really fast white dudes twice a year. we will also be playing Darrell Jackson and Jeremy Stevens (who is emerging) twice a year...

However, we will also have to stop Alexander, James and Steven Jackson.

BUT, I think that we are better at stopping the run and should go for a DB

Pass-rush is far more important in slowing these high-octane offensive teams. There are very few blanket cover corners in the league now, especially with the rule changes to take away the bumping and touching by CBs. Good pass rush makes average DBs look good. No pass rush makes All Pro DBs look average.

We don't have any pass rush. That comes from LBs in the 3-4. Seeing the pattern?

[jay_1699]

What you are missing/forgetting is that in the 3-4, the OLB isn't just a run stopper. They are the primary sources of pass rush. Yes, the line porvide a push and you get blitzes, but the WOLB especially is the 4th man in the rush. Without a pass-rush, you get...well...our secondary last year. A good pass rush can make an OK secondary look a lot better. No pass-rush and it doesn't matter if you have Deion Sanders, Ronnie Lott, Carlton Williamson and Eric Wright back there. Give an NFL QB 6 or 7 seconds and he will tear you apart.

To update you, Siegler left last year and Rasheed is going this year (no contract offer from anybody including us). Moore might make the move to OLB, but he spent most of last year replacing Ulbrich at ILB not OLB, so if we make that swap, we still need depth at ILB. Maybe that is TJ Slaughter, maybe not.

Yes, we need a Free Safety, as Adams is not a starter-quality player, but we could possibly get Pat Watkins, Roman Harper or Anthony Smith in the 3rd round, although Whitner or Allen would be useful fallback positions if all the OLBs are gone at #22. But for the benefit of all the posters who keep saying it - NO, WE CAN'T JUST PICK UP 3-4 OLBS IN THE LATER ROUNDS. We're not talking depth, we're talking starters. It's virtually always a project, because so few colleges play 3-4, but do you want to take that chance with a 7th round athlete or a 1st round athlete to be your opening day starter? Also, the number of guys who fit is not that high, and when you consider Robert Mathis, what is too small for a 4-3 DE? There are rumours that Cincy are smitten with Kamerion Wimbley, one of the top 3-4 tweener prospects, but they play 4-3.


My guess is rumph will be our starting FS and moore is already pencilled in at LOLB (SAM). You are incorrect in assuming OLB is a pass rush position for the 49ers....the ROLB (WILL) is a DE/pass rusher in our scheme, but the LOLB (SAM) is a cover/zone guy in the traditional sense of a strongside LB. Though the LOLB does blitz, it's not the primary role and the person blitzing is not going to be going against Olinemen on a regular basis (they are blitzes designed to get around the Olinemen, not confront them).

[Mr Spoons]

My guess is rumph will be our starting FS and moore is already pencilled in at LOLB (SAM). You are incorrect in assuming OLB is a pass rush position for the 49ers....the ROLB (WILL) is a DE/pass rusher in our scheme, but the LOLB (SAM) is a cover/zone guy in the traditional sense of a strongside LB. Though the LOLB does blitz, it's not the primary role and the person blitzing is not going to be going against Olinemen on a regular basis (they are blitzes designed to get around the Olinemen, not confront them).

Do you re-read what you write before you press submit?

What is WOLB if not an OLB? And I did say "WOLB especially is the 4th man in the rush", so it's not like I was suggesting we run 5 man rush packages all the time...

If Moore is SOLB, then we have no depth at ILB, so we'd need to pick up another ILB. Hawk is very solid in coverage. 8.5 sacks suggest he is a capable blitzer. He picks through traffic very well and does an excellent job of shedding blockers. So why can't he play SOLB?

Nolan gave up on the Rumph to FS project after 3 games last year. I can't see why he would try again when he can pick a true FS in the draft.

[jay_1699]

Do you re-read what you write before you press submit?

What is WOLB if not an OLB? And I did say "WOLB especially is the 4th man in the rush", so it's not like I was suggesting we run 5 man rush packages all the time...

If Moore is SOLB, then we have no depth at ILB, so we'd need to pick up another ILB. Hawk is very solid in coverage. 8.5 sacks suggest he is a capable blitzer. He picks through traffic very well and does an excellent job of shedding blockers. So why can't he play SOLB?

Nolan gave up on the Rumph to FS project after 3 games last year. I can't see why he would try again when he can pick a true FS in the draft.


So, we waste a #6 overall pick to draft a back-up and/or someone to replace a current starter (and moore seems to be at least average)? As for hawk playing LOLB - He "could" do it for sure, but it wouldn't play to his strengths and he may not be any better then moore at the position (not to mention we can get better cover LB's later in the draft). It would be like drafting VD and ONLY using him as a blocking TE...I'm sure he can block, but why the hell would you ONLY let him block?

P.S. - I didn't suggest that you want to "rush 5"; rather, I pointed out that you are blurring the positions/needs of the team. You say we need an OLB so hawk makes sense, but then you seem to understand that we need a ROLB and NOT a LOLB.....hawk cannot play ROLB in our scheme, we need a DE for this. So don't make a blanket statement like needing an OLB and hawk is an OLB without qualifying it first.

[Mr Spoons]

So, we waste a #6 overall pick to draft a back-up and/or someone to replace a current starter (and moore seems to be at least average)? As for hawk playing LOLB - He "could" do it for sure, but it wouldn't play to his strengths and he may not be any better then moore at the position (not to mention we can get better cover LB's later in the draft). It would be like drafting VD and ONLY using him as a blocking TE...I'm sure he can block, but why the hell would you ONLY let him block?

P.S. - I didn't suggest that you want to "rush 5"; rather, I pointed out that you are blurring the positions/needs of the team. You say we need an OLB so hawk makes sense, but then you seem to understand that we need a ROLB and NOT a LOLB.....hawk cannot play ROLB in our scheme, we need a DE for this. So don't make a blanket statement like needing an OLB and hawk is an OLB without qualifying it first.

Why can't Hawk play SOLB? Just as much of a need, as Moore started at ILB most of last season, not OLB, and so is no more of a guaranteed starter than anyone we draft.

Can he cover? Yes
Can he blitz? Yes
Can he shed blockers? Yes(he may have trouble with massive blockers, but name an LB who doesn't)
Is he big enough? Maybe not ideal height, but name a guy in the draft who is who has Hawk's ability. He's certainly got the weight and speed.

[jay_1699]

Why can't Hawk play SOLB? Just as much of a need, as Moore started at ILB most of last season, not OLB, and so is no more of a guaranteed starter than anyone we draft.

Can he cover? Yes
Can he blitz? Yes
Can he shed blockers? Yes(he may have trouble with massive blockers, but name an LB who doesn't)
Is he big enough? Maybe not ideal height, but name a guy in the draft who is who has Hawk's ability. He's certainly got the weight and speed.


That's not the point. As i've said many times now, hawk CAn play LOLB, but we have someone at the position already (even though hawk MAY be better). It makes no sense to use a #6 overall pick to draft depth when we currently have NO projected starter at ROLB, FB, CB, FS, etc. (not to mention our #2 WR couldn't be #5 on most teams).

[Ohio49erfan]

This is just a spitball idea, feel free to ignore it.. LOL

Take the Jets offer of their #4 and 29 for our #6 and 22.. Then, Take AJ or super mario w/ the 4... Then, trade Barlow to GB for Walker str8 up.. Then w/ the 29 pick, take DeAngelo or Maroney..

At that point, we've bolstered our D w/ either Mario or AJ, given a potential weapon to Alex w/ Walker, got rid of a problem-child in Barlow, and replaced him with a talented back.

GO GO GOOD GUYS! :sflogo:

[Ace Matherton]

That's not the point. As i've said many times now, hawk CAn play LOLB, but we have someone at the position already (even though hawk MAY be better). It makes no sense to use a #6 overall pick to draft depth when we currently have NO projected starter at ROLB, FB, CB, FS, etc. (not to mention our #2 WR couldn't be #5 on most teams).
So your point is to reach for one of those other positions at the pick if no trade down is available? Whom would you like drafted? Hawk, Williams, VD, D'brick would then be considered "depth" picks as well considering who they would replace on the team? We have to draft the best player on our board available with our first pick. It would be stupid for a team as talent deficient as ours to reach for players just because they fill a "starting" need. Thats what the second round of FA and the second day of the draft is for. If Hawks the guy then so be it in two years when we have a need at MLB because of retirement/FA we wont regret the pick and Hawk would "fill" in untill that point.

[Mr Spoons]

That's not the point. As i've said many times now, hawk CAn play LOLB, but we have someone at the position already (even though hawk MAY be better). It makes no sense to use a #6 overall pick to draft depth when we currently have NO projected starter at ROLB, FB, CB, FS, etc. (not to mention our #2 WR couldn't be #5 on most teams).

So who do we draft, given that there is no WOLB, FB, CB or FS worth the #6? And if the reply is Davis, go back and look at your own argument against Hawk, because Moore is a much more marginal starter than EJ.

Also, in twin TE sets, one of the TE's will usually stay in on pass plays and block. It's rare that both TEs will run a pattern, so that would mean we've drafted Vern to either block mostly (we can get a late rounder who can really block but not catch to do that) or we reduce EJ, the converted WR with 80 catches 2 yrs ago to blocking TE.

[49ertime]

So who do we draft, given that there is no WOLB, FB, CB or FS worth the #6? And if the reply is Davis, go back and look at your own argument against Hawk, because Moore is a much more marginal starter than EJ.

Also, in twin TE sets, one of the TE's will usually stay in on pass plays and block. It's rare that both TEs will run a pattern, so that would mean we've drafted Vern to either block mostly (we can get a late rounder who can really block but not catch to do that) or we reduce EJ, the converted WR with 80 catches 2 yrs ago to blocking TE.


I think you are not being fair w/ the ej comparison. Davis does fill a need that we have b/c ej is NEVER healthy. And even though he may be healthy now the likelyhood he will be there the rest of the season is marginal at best. Plus w/ ej out our TE production last year was HORRIBLE! and we need a good TE for alex, to develop. So the TE pick is not as cut and dry as you make it. I do like the idea of drafting the best player available but since i tend ot think that is VD these picks line up perfectly. As for who jay might suggest for the other needs you listed Huff could be a FS that we could pick up at 6. AS for FB you are correct there is no way we could pick one up in the first round w/ out completely wasting that pick, and i agree it is too early to go w/ any of the other corners out there, unless you are thinking of huff for corner (which i am not conviced he would play, b/c i think we would use him at FS).

[Ace Matherton]

I think you are not being fair w/ the ej comparison. Davis does fill a need that we have b/c ej is NEVER healthy. And even though he may be healthy now the likelyhood he will be there the rest of the season is marginal at best. Plus w/ ej out our TE production last year was HORRIBLE! and we need a good TE for alex, to develop. So the TE pick is not as cut and dry as you make it. I do like the idea of drafting the best player available but since i tend ot think that is VD these picks line up perfectly. As for who jay might suggest for the other needs you listed Huff could be a FS that we could pick up at 6. AS for FB you are correct there is no way we could pick one up in the first round w/ out completely wasting that pick, and i agree it is too early to go w/ any of the other corners out there, unless you are thinking of huff for corner (which i am not conviced he would play, b/c i think we would use him at FS).
No one's arguing that VD isnt the guy, it was if VD was gone do we go for hawk. Personally I think Huff is a reach at 6 more valued around 8-9.

[Mr Spoons]

I think you are not being fair w/ the ej comparison. Davis does fill a need that we have b/c ej is NEVER healthy. And even though he may be healthy now the likelyhood he will be there the rest of the season is marginal at best. Plus w/ ej out our TE production last year was HORRIBLE! and we need a good TE for alex, to develop. So the TE pick is not as cut and dry as you make it. I do like the idea of drafting the best player available but since i tend ot think that is VD these picks line up perfectly. As for who jay might suggest for the other needs you listed Huff could be a FS that we could pick up at 6. AS for FB you are correct there is no way we could pick one up in the first round w/ out completely wasting that pick, and i agree it is too early to go w/ any of the other corners out there, unless you are thinking of huff for corner (which i am not conviced he would play, b/c i think we would use him at FS).

In another thread, someone defended Mike Rumph's "injury-proneness", saying he bust his arm last year, and that can happen to anyone (see Tony Parrish - several years of 16/16s then broken bone last year). So I thought, let's look at EJ's injuries.

2001 - played 16 of 16
2002 - played 12 of 16. He missed 4 mid-season games due to a back injury
2003 - missed season with a broken collarbone
2004 - played 16 of 16
2005 - missed season with a plantar fascitis tear (foot injury) which is now reportedly healed.

So, his injuries aren't chronic and repetitive (back, fracture, foot). If he goes down, he's gone for the season, so no "in one game, out 2, in another couple, out again". He doesn't have a string of years where he's played 8 or 9 games and missed the rest. He is a top receiving TE when fit (04 showed that). His contract is up at the end of '07, but I have no doubt that, if he plays this year, we will make re-signing him one of our top tasks of the end of season.

Also, this TE class is a very good one, with Pope, Lewis, Byrd, Fasano and Klopfenstein behind Vernon, so we could probably pick up a top TE prospect in the 3rd or 4th round. Truthfully, if this year's WR class were anything like next year's is likely to be, we would not be talking about Vernon. We would be looking for Dwayne Jarrett, Calvin Johnson, Sydney Rice or Jeff Samardzija, saying that you don't take a TE at #6, they're just not worth it.

And I am arguing that Vernon isn't THE guy. If Hawk and Vernon are there, I want us to pick Hawk. He fills a currently empty slot in our D. Vernon is "upgrading" a guy who is potentially a Pro-Bowler and lord knows we have few enough of those.

[DIEHARD9ER]

nobody wants him...couldnt get anything for him...big cap hit...just a bunch of NO's.....actually i'd like to see what he and gore can do with a decent Oline....then maybe he might be worth somethin....be nice if he just started earning his money......:banana6: