What is a reasonable price for Builder's Seat License?

[smoking_rubber]

What is a reasonable price for Builder's Seat License?

$2000 ea.? Broken out over the next 10 years, that an extra $20.00 per game. Raising my per seat price to $84. That seems a bit steep.

I've heard mention of $5000 per seat. That's REAL steep! That number broken out over the next ten years adds $50 to each seat / each game! That would raise my game-day expense by $100.

Let's look at what they need to generate. They're probably looking to sell 50,000 seats. Possibly more, but round numbers work better. A $2000 BSL for 50,000 seats equals 100 million dollars. That number seems high, but I get light-headed when I look at my own W2. Does that money drop into York's stadium fund, or is it on Santa Clara's side of the ledger?

Is $2000 reasonable? For me, yes I suppose I would be willing to pay that. I would prefer to pay HALF that . . . but I would be willing to dig a little deeper since it's for a good cause.

How much would you be willing to spend per seat? Please tell us if you are a current STH.

[Fromthe3rdRow]

What is a reasonable price for Builder's Seat License? ...

STH for about 15 years now.
Active in Santa Clara Chapter of 49ers Booster Club
Active on the Official 49er Message Board since 2002
Organized the 49er Message Board Party from 2004-2006
Two time Tailgater of the Game Winner
Original Tailgater of the Year (Winner in 2005)

Yeah, my credibility as a Niner fan is pretty solid.

But my opinon of Builders Seat Licenses - other wise known in these parts as a "PSL" means little.

I recommend you ask our fellow football fans wearing Silver and Black. I'm sure you can get some very good information from that side of the bay...

[TheWiz]

The slight problem being that Personal Seat Licenses and Stadium Builder Licenses are two entirely separate things when it comes to financing rules in the NFL.

Pewrsonal Seat Licenses were first invented by owners with an amicable intent. It raised money to build and renovate stadiums which has become more and more expensive as time has gone on. It's the point of the Player's Union however to actually police and regulate accounting of the ball clubs. After all, the salary cap and how much players make is entirely based on how muhc money the league earns. If owners rake in $120M in a season in PSLs then it should be considered revenue if they spend it. That sparked an entire debate over how PSL money can be spent.

The basic rules say that owners can spend PSL income anyway that they choose, believe it or not. Nothing keeps an owner from taking it and using it to pay a big bonus for his head coach and to hire a company to redo the team's logo. In fact, there are pages upon pages of PSL spending rules in the CBA. The basic rules say any PSL used for anything but stadium renovating, building, or maintenance must count as income. Even interest earned on the money cannot be spent without being considered income the same as a ticket sold. When it comes to PSLs owners have full freedom to use it as they wish and they have no responsibility to the fans to let them know how it is spent.

SBLs, or Stadium Builders Licenses, are a new trend largely designed to be less sneaky than PSLs. Because PSLs kind of sprung up out of nowhere, owners found loopholes and ways to abuse the system. SBLs on the other hand are the good faith offer of the owner. SBL income can explicitly only be used for building, renovating, and maintaining stadiums. An owner can't pocket interest from SBLs nor use it for any other purpose. So fans get the guarantee that they're not helping to fill the owners billfolds but rather investing in the stadium and its future.

[Fromthe3rdRow]

The slight problem being that Personal Seat Licenses and Stadium Builder Licenses are two entirely separate things when it comes to financing rules in the NFL.

Pewrsonal Seat Licenses were first invented by owners with an amicable intent. It raised money to build and renovate stadiums which has become more and more expensive as time has gone on. It's the point of the Player's Union however to actually police and regulate accounting of the ball clubs. After all, the salary cap and how much players make is entirely based on how muhc money the league earns. If owners rake in $120M in a season in PSLs then it should be considered revenue if they spend it. That sparked an entire debate over how PSL money can be spent.

The basic rules say that owners can spend PSL income anyway that they choose, believe it or not. Nothing keeps an owner from taking it and using it to pay a big bonus for his head coach and to hire a company to redo the team's logo. In fact, there are pages upon pages of PSL spending rules in the CBA. The basic rules say any PSL used for anything but stadium renovating, building, or maintenance must count as income. Even interest earned on the money cannot be spent without being considered income the same as a ticket sold. When it comes to PSLs owners have full freedom to use it as they wish and they have no responsibility to the fans to let them know how it is spent.

SBLs, or Stadium Builders Licenses, are a new trend largely designed to be less sneaky than PSLs. Because PSLs kind of sprung up out of nowhere, owners found loopholes and ways to abuse the system. SBLs on the other hand are the good faith offer of the owner. SBL income can explicitly only be used for building, renovating, and maintaining stadiums. An owner can't pocket interest from SBLs nor use it for any other purpose. So fans get the guarantee that they're not helping to fill the owners billfolds but rather investing in the stadium and its future.

Mmm- kay.

So a SBL is NOT a PSL. My bad. I figured since both come from the fan's wallets, they amount to pretty much the same thing.

But I should be fair - the current Santa Clara stadium proposal suggests SBL's may have more value to the fans than the old PSL's foisted upon foolish fans across the bay. (No offense Larry - but if they dress up in Halloween costums to attend games - they be foolish in my book!)

Can anyone provide details of the differences? My mama taught me never to buy a pig in a poke. I'm going to need more information before I open up my wallet - but that's just me - I know I'm cheap!

[XRaguX]

What is a reasonable price for Builder's Seat License?

$2000 ea.? Broken out over the next 10 years, that an extra $20.00 per game. Raising my per seat price to $84. That seems a bit steep.

I've heard mention of $5000 per seat. That's REAL steep! That number broken out over the next ten years adds $50 to each seat / each game! That would raise my game-day expense by $100.

Let's look at what they need to generate. They're probably looking to sell 50,000 seats. Possibly more, but round numbers work better. A $2000 BSL for 50,000 seats equals 100 million dollars. That number seems high, but I get light-headed when I look at my own W2. Does that money drop into York's stadium fund, or is it on Santa Clara's side of the ledger?

Is $2000 reasonable? For me, yes I suppose I would be willing to pay that. I would prefer to pay HALF that . . . but I would be willing to dig a little deeper since it's for a good cause.

How much would you be willing to spend per seat? Please tell us if you are a current STH.

At one time, the Wiz outlined how the stadium financing would be broken out:

http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=24398

I'm not sure if this is still the plan but in his post he stated that only $20MM would come from SBL.

From this number, I calculated the number of seats that may be affected and at what cost.

http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showthread.php?p=714938#post714938

The main issue I see with SBL's is that, while they're marketed as not mandatory, someone could come in a buy the SBL out from under you.
http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showthread.php?p=732619#post732619

[Fromthe3rdRow]

At one time, the Wiz outlined how the stadium financing would be broken out:

http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=24398

I'm not sure if this is still the plan but in his post he stated that only $20MM would come from SBL.

From this number, I calculated the number of seats that may be affected and at what cost.

http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showthread.php?p=714938#post714938

The main issue I see with SBL's is that, while they're marketed as not mandatory, someone could come in a buy the SBL out from under you.
http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showthread.php?p=732619#post732619

There was some great information/discussion in the above threads. Highly recommended reading for anyone interested in the proposed Santa Clara stadium and SBL's...

Nice Post!

[TheWiz]

That breakdown is very outdated and definitely needs to be changed. The concept of a ticket tax went out the window a long time ago. Largely because the team not only wants to avoid inflating prices too much in a new stadium but also because Santa Clara wasn't behind it. Taxing non-football events to pay for the football costs seems like a continued investment on their part which they didn't agree with.

Also, the overallprice tag of the project has changed and can easily be estimated at upwards of another 100M to cover changes to a proposed Convention Center garage and also increased estimates of some of the technology and amenities that are being considered.

At some point once an approval is made, the team will go back to the drawing board and realistically look at both the financing and design of the site. Then based on all of that, figure what they can and cannot afford and eventually produce an SBL estimate but I'm fairly certain it will be much more than $1,000.

[Teke]

Did they announce the cost SBL's yet?

[Fromthe3rdRow]

Did they announce the cost SBL's yet?
Nope.

And exact details are not available yet either.

Patience.....

[Peter Proud]

That breakdown is very outdated and definitely needs to be changed. The concept of a ticket tax went out the window a long time ago. Largely because the team not only wants to avoid inflating prices too much in a new stadium but also because Santa Clara wasn't behind it. Taxing non-football events to pay for the football costs seems like a continued investment on their part which they didn't agree with.

Wait one minute! As I read the above, if there is NOT a Ticket Tax on all tickets sold for stadium events then it means that the only people contributing to the maintaince and upkeep will be those people buying a SBL.

Why should it that only the 49ERS STH's be responsible for maintaince and upkeep? For 10 (more if play-offs) games a year? Just so the ticket prices for other events can be keep down? That's a bunch of crap!!!!

With the 49ERS having STH's purchase SBL, they are saying to The City of Santa Clara: Hey, you can use our STH's as a source of 'involuntary investors' so you don't have to attach a ticket tax on tickets for all the other events you will have at the stadium.

Telling STH's that with the '1st right of refusal' for other events will allow them to purchase and resell at a higher price to recover the SBL's sounds exactly like encouraging STH's to become scalpers!


Also, the overallprice tag of the project has changed and can easily be estimated at upwards of another 100M to cover changes to a proposed Convention Center garage and also increased estimates of some of the technology and amenities that are being considered.

Sounds to me like the STH's are being asked to pay SBLs so that Santa Clara can create a better enviroment for all the additional visitors coming to the Convention Center and Stadium the other 350 days a year.


At some point once an approval is made, the team will go back to the drawing board and realistically look at both the financing and design of the site. Then based on all of that, figure what they can and cannot afford and eventually produce an SBL estimate but I'm fairly certain it will be much more than $1,000.

Translation: Welcome to the 49ERS Car Lot. That car you saw in the ad? It doesn't exist (I mean we already sold it)! But look here, with a larger down payment and higher monthly payments you can still get a new car today!

(That extra money you will have to pay is so we can give lower pricing to the 'fleet' or 'online' customers. We'd rather have you pay extra so we don't 'nickle and dime' them.)

TheWiz... I understand you are only trying to help people understand this process going on, but the more I hear, the less enthusiastic I am.

It's time the 49ERS start being a bit more up front with what's going on!:down:

Fred: I'm stockpiling the ammo now!!!:hunter: :hunter: :shoot:

[TheWiz]

Wait one minute! As I read the above, if there is NOT a Ticket Tax on all tickets sold for stadium events then it means that the only people contributing to the maintaince and upkeep will be those people buying a SBL.

No. First of all, yes, the money from SBL's can be used for stadium maintenance but stadiums in their first 10 years are easy to maintain. Anything broken is still current enough to replace without excessive costs and as decades have worn on stadiums are built better for regular wear. You expect to need to fix or repair a lot of stadiums the first 10 years about as often a lightbulb burns out in the first few months.

In this case SBLs would right into the stadium financing, period. If you think about it rationally, the owners would rather burn any and all SBL income in the financing and spend as little as possible themselves. After all, SBL income is limited in its use. If York spares 5M in SBL funds he can't use that money to pay a players contract the next year. But if he burns up the SBL funds and spend 5M less, that's money in his pocket he can spend however. So in that way SBL's almost force an owners hand to spending it on stadium building.


Why should it that only the 49ERS STH's be responsible for maintaince and upkeep? For 10 (more if play-offs) games a year? Just so the ticket prices for other events can be keep down? That's a bunch of crap!!!!

Wow, I hit a nerve there didn't I? First of all, do you really think a couple of concerts, some alternative sporting events, outdoor sporting/vehicle shows, and/or local usage will do anywhere near the damage? After all, all of the money earned from these events go into the city's stadium authority, which all goes back into maintenance. Whatever income doesn't pay for maintenance from 49ers games will come from those ticket sales and if that's still not enough, team funds.

Keep in mind that any sort of stadium tax gets met with rancor these days. A $.02 gas tax in the county, a whopping quarter or two per tank, would get shot down with vigor. People leave pennies and nickels on the ground but scream if someone asks for a quarter. But regional sales taxes or event taxes get shot down more often these days. Besides, if anything if my estimates was not going to stick, that was it.


With the 49ERS having STH's purchase SBL, they are saying to The City of Santa Clara: Hey, you can use our STH's as a source of 'involuntary investors' so you don't have to attach a ticket tax on tickets for all the other events you will have at the stadium.

And Santa Clara is in return asking "If we're paying upwards of 160M for a stadium and we get to own it, why should we need to pay a continuing tax on events held in our stadium to help you even more to pay for it?" Because after all, keep in mind, it will be 49er fans, even SBL holders, that will continue to pay any ticket tax in large amounts. It's not like Santa Clara will have 600k fans of its own at other events, it would do well to get a third to half of that.


Telling STH's that with the '1st right of refusal' for other events will allow them to purchase and resell at a higher price to recover the SBL's sounds exactly like encouraging STH's to become scalpers!

No offense but, many of them are just that. Scalpers, especially devoted ones, buy season tickets even when teams are down just to take a small loss each year because the year the team gets hot those playoff seats are worth a LOT more and pay off any previous losses. If anything SBL's discourage these types of scalpers because it can take a LONG time to work off the $3k SBL cost or whatever it may be. So the value is there for the fans, not the scalpers.


Sounds to me like the STH's are being asked to pay SBLs so that Santa Clara can create a better enviroment for all the additional visitors coming to the Convention Center and Stadium the other 350 days a year.

I don't see how you got that impression.

Translation: Welcome to the 49ERS Car Lot. That car you saw in the ad? It doesn't exist (I mean we already sold it)! But look here, with a larger down payment and higher monthly payments you can still get a new car today!

(That extra money you will have to pay is so we can give lower pricing to the 'fleet' or 'online' customers. We'd rather have you pay extra so we don't 'nickle and dime' them.)

Not really. There is far too much impatience in this process. Too many fans acting like it's taking too long or expecting answers tomorrow that don't come overnight. When you've got an easy 3 year cushion before breaking ground, the team doesn't need answer tomorrow. It only needs them on a scale obviously too slow for impatient fans.

Things will change and I'm sorry if my initial estimate has not held perfect over time but that's why it's an estimate, not written in stone.


TheWiz... I understand you are only trying to help people understand this process going on, but the more I hear, the less enthusiastic I am.

It's time the 49ERS start being a bit more up front with what's going on!:down:

Fred: I'm stockpiling the ammo now!!!:hunter: :hunter: :shoot:

Well, not to ruin the surprise but Hunter's Point isn't any better. If anything, higher SBL's AND ticket taxes for the stadium would be needed to fund a Hunter's Point stadium which comes with a nearly 250M cost (consider no more Santa Clara investment and the cost to build a new team HQ, probably in the north bay area.)

[Peter Proud]

No. First of all, yes, the money from SBL's can be used for stadium maintenance but stadiums in their first 10 years are easy to maintain. Anything broken is still current enough to replace without excessive costs and as decades have worn on stadiums are built better for regular wear. You expect to need to fix or repair a lot of stadiums the first 10 years about as often a lightbulb burns out in the first few months.

If maint. cost the 1st 10 years are mininal...then making payment plans available for the SBL's should be a priority goal for the 49ers.

In this case SBLs would right into the stadium financing, period. If you think about it rationally, the owners would rather burn any and all SBL income in the financing and spend as little as possible themselves. After all, SBL income is limited in its use. If York spares 5M in SBL funds he can't use that money to pay a players contract the next year. But if he burns up the SBL funds and spend 5M less, that's money in his pocket he can spend however. So in that way SBL's almost force an owners hand to spending it on stadium building.

Sounds like the SBL fee (tax) will be to re-imburse Santa Clara for the money they have to put up (160 million for a 1 billion dollar stadium that Santa Clara will own.) STH's will be held responsibile for paying back the city's investment.

Why is it only the STH that will have to pay and not any of those fans purchasing single game tickets, 1/2 season pkgs, or group tickets?



Wow, I hit a nerve there didn't I? First of all, do you really think a couple of concerts, some alternative sporting events, outdoor sporting/vehicle shows, and/or local usage will do anywhere near the damage? After all, all of the money earned from these events go into the city's stadium authority, which all goes back into maintenance. Whatever income doesn't pay for maintenance from 49ers games will come from those ticket sales and if that's still not enough, team funds.

Do football fans cause more damage than fans of other events? What's to keep the 49ers from setting high SBL's so that they make sure they won't have to pay if maint. cost exceed funds from SBL's?

Keep in mind that any sort of stadium tax gets met with rancor these days. A $.02 gas tax in the county, a whopping quarter or two per tank, would get shot down with vigor. People leave pennies and nickels on the ground but scream if someone asks for a quarter. But regional sales taxes or event taxes get shot down more often these days. Besides, if anything if my estimates was not going to stick, that was it.

So lets tax those people who can't vote.....wow, that's fair! I recall when a country went to war over being taxed without representation!

Why is it that the 49ers don't want a ticket tax on each ticket, but doesn't do anything to stop Ticketmaster from doing it? On top of the $64.00 face-value I pay, Ticketmaster adds $10.00 per ticket (single game fee?) and then another $7.75 conv. fee. That's 2 taxes on each ticket!



And Santa Clara is in return asking "If we're paying upwards of 160M for a stadium and we get to own it, why should we need to pay a continuing tax on events held in our stadium to help you even more to pay for it?" Because after all, keep in mind, it will be 49er fans, even SBL holders, that will continue to pay any ticket tax in large amounts. It's not like Santa Clara will have 600k fans of its own at other events, it would do well to get a third to half of that.

Why can't a 'maint. fee' be added to each ticket, similar to Ticketmaster's conv. fee (which isn't convient)? Since every ticket sold means someone will be causing wear and tear so every ticket should help pay for the wear and tear.



No offense but, many of them are just that. Scalpers, especially devoted ones, buy season tickets even when teams are down just to take a small loss each year because the year the team gets hot those playoff seats are worth a LOT more and pay off any previous losses. If anything SBL's discourage these types of scalpers because it can take a LONG time to work off the $3k SBL cost or whatever it may be. So the value is there for the fans, not the scalpers.

I was refering to the idea that STHs who pay the SBL can use their 'right of 1st refusal' on other events to scalp those tickets...I believe that was the idea presented as to why having a SBL would be a good thing.



I don't see how you got that impression.



Not really. There is far too much impatience in this process. Too many fans acting like it's taking too long or expecting answers tomorrow that don't come overnight. When you've got an easy 3 year cushion before breaking ground, the team doesn't need answer tomorrow. It only needs them on a scale obviously too slow for impatient fans.

As I see deeper explainations to previous information it brings new questions. As you offer more insight, my radar perks up. I am very sensitive to the issue of SBL's (***'s).

Things will change and I'm sorry if my initial estimate has not held perfect over time but that's why it's an estimate, not written in stone..)[/QUOTE]





Well, not to ruin the surprise but Hunter's Point isn't any better. If anything, higher SBL's AND ticket taxes for the stadium would be needed to fund a Hunter's Point stadium which comes with a nearly 250M cost (consider no more Santa Clara investment and the cost to build a new team HQ, probably in the north bay area.)[/QUOTE]

[TheWiz]

If maint. cost the 1st 10 years are mininal...then making payment plans available for the SBL's should be a priority goal for the 49ers.

Sorry but last time I looked the team doesn't even have a site for their stadium let alone financing. Something tells me that having a stadium site approved is a lot more important than payment plans for a small percentage of the financing package is important. Otherwise you're worrying about paying for the cows long before a pasture even exists.


Sounds like the SBL fee (tax) will be to re-imburse Santa Clara for the money they have to put up (160 million for a 1 billion dollar stadium that Santa Clara will own.) STH's will be held responsibile for paying back the city's investment.

How do you continually mine my words for the most irrelevant but yet pessimistic possible interpretation? How in any fashion does an SBL help Santa Clara? If every penny is spent on the stadium construction on top of the 160M Santa Clara needs to invest in additional, unplanned costs, where do SBL's figure in? Where does any SBL cash end up in Santa Clara's hands?

Why do STH's pay SBL's? Do you not attend every season? Do you want the rights to your seats? It stands up very easily that if you're attending each game year after year, you are benefitting from the stadium and also contributing to its ongoing costs and maintenance. You can stand to gain more from a new stadium and ammenities over the long run, why is it that you're excempt from paying for these benefits if you want them?


Why is it only the STH that will have to pay and not any of those fans purchasing single game tickets, 1/2 season pkgs, or group tickets?

Read the above.


Do football fans cause more damage than fans of other events?

Do more fans cause more damage than fewer fans? Do you really think that over 600k football fans and maybe 100k fans for other events attend then all damage and costs fall to the 100k? I hope you realize more fans create more trash, use more seats, require more utilities such as water and sewage, and in turn use more resources and leave more waste as a result. Maintenance isn't damage, it's costs. Fans don't cause bulbs to burn out, grass to undergo droughts or speakers to rust from their mountings.

What's to keep the 49ers from setting high SBL's so that they make sure they won't have to pay if maint. cost exceed funds from SBL's?

What's to keep CA from charging you another $1 per gallon of gas? How about a 20% hike in property taxes? How about Al Davis from doubling the cost of Colliseum tickets for next year? Why shouldn't he, he;d rake in the dough!


So lets tax those people who can't vote.....wow, that's fair! I recall when a country went to war over being taxed without representation!

Why is it that the 49ers don't want a ticket tax on each ticket, but doesn't do anything to stop Ticketmaster from doing it? On top of the $64.00 face-value I pay, Ticketmaster adds $10.00 per ticket (single game fee?) and then another $7.75 conv. fee. That's 2 taxes on each ticket!

What? When did I say anyone was without the right to vote? Actually, no country went to war over taxation as you mentioned. A couple of united English colonies did though and taxation was far from the key matter involved.

Why does Ticketmaster do it? Well, who demanded you buy through ticketmaster? Are they the only ticket seller you can use? I doubt it. If they are then the venue made a deal and you got fleeced, plain and simple. If not, you're paying for what you're buying. I hate to tell you but those aren't taxes, that's called Ticketmaster charging you fees for convenience. Those aren't taxes. Taxes are given to a government to pay for costs and services for the public good, Ticketmaster is a private business. Those are not taxes, those are fees you are paying! And just so you know, they don't go to the team in any way, you just paid ticketmaster.


Why can't a 'maint. fee' be added to each ticket, similar to Ticketmaster's conv. fee (which isn't convient)? Since every ticket sold means someone will be causing wear and tear so every ticket should help pay for the wear and tear.

Again, so Santa Clara pays 160M to get the stadium. Which they own. Then their residents should pay tickettaxes to enter a stadium for which their ticket price is already paying for the maintenance? Do you not get the accounting basics?

Total gross revenue from NFL games + revenue from other events at the site = spent on maintenance. Anything not spent = Santa Clara earning back its 160M. Anything producing a shortfall = York's pocket. If people already are paying for maintaining the stadium, what purpose does a ticket tax serve in this case? Any tax goes exactly where the ticket money went otherwise! At least Ticketmaster keeps its convenience fee, the ticket price went to the team.


I was refering to the idea that STHs who pay the SBL can use their 'right of 1st refusal' on other events to scalp those tickets...I believe that was the idea presented as to why having a SBL would be a good thing.

I know what you meant. My point is that fans who buy SBL's can still lower the cost of SBL's by exercising their right to buy tickets for other events.


As I see deeper explainations to previous information it brings new questions. As you offer more insight, my radar perks up. I am very sensitive to the issue of SBL's (***'s).

Things will change and I'm sorry if my initial estimate has not held perfect over time but that's why it's an estimate, not written in stone..)

Of course you are because OAK got duped into a bad deal including SBL's that involved an underbudgeted renovation of a dying stadium that has fleeced their public coffers and wasted away PSLs invested by fans. For all you know, most of that PSL money has been used by your owner to finance his endless and fruitless litigation of the NFL corporate or Oakland itself. You may have actually paid money to allow your owner to cost Oakland in litigation that costs even more in your tax money to defeat despite its ridiculous basis. It's akin to giving a guy the money to buy the gun he later uses to rob you on a street one day. I'd be angry too!

[Peter Proud]

I don't care where a person lives. I just feel that every person who buys a ticket for the stadium (wherever it is built) should help pay for the upkeep...not just one particular group.

If the maint. is to be paid by football fans, why shouldn't it be paid by all football fans? Why should it only be paid for by the STH?

In time many of my concerns may become moot points as more detailed information is released. I realize that the team cannot tell us exactly how the STH/SBLH is to be implemented until they have a stadium deal in place.

However, when I read things not previously posted that can have an adverse financial effect on me, I will continue to search for answers.

[smoking_rubber]

$3,000 a seat? JEEEEEEZ! I know that's not an official number, but my official reaction is: JEEEEEEEZ!

So we can still get season tickets without paying for the SBL? I take it our seats would not be guaranteed for the next season unless we forked over 3k? We would be stuck sitting wherever?

How does paying 3k a seat help the average fan? If Joe Schmo can buy a tix for $64 plus $20 juice from ticketmaster . . . why would I want to pay THREE THOUSAND dollars for the right to buy tix to Monster Trucks. I don't live in the area and I would NEVER drive all the way up there for some concert or to try my hand at scalping.

Even if I wanted to resell my 49er tix, I would have to charge astronomical prices. 3k divvied up over 10 years equals an extra $30 per seat I'd have to charge. Or, it adds $60 to my game-day budget. FOR TEN YEARS!

Putting 6k on a credit card just piles on interest. There's $100 a month down the tubes. And I'd still have to squirrel away $1500 a year (or more by then) to pay for the stinking tickets.

So how many people would be willing to fork over a 1-time fee of $3000 (per seat) to guarantee their spot? How many people would take their chances on non-SBL seats? How many of you would stay home?

I hope they keep the SBL prices at around $1500 ea. (match your tix cost for different areas in the stadium). That would be reasonable and financing assistance would be appreciated.

[Coldrain85]

$3,000 a seat? JEEEEEEZ! I know that's not an official number, but my official reaction is: JEEEEEEEZ!

Sorry to bum you out, but $3,000 may actually be a little bit on the low side. There's a chance that they may offer 2 different price tiers, but it will likely be somewwhere in the neighborhood of $2,000/$4,000 or $2,500/$5,000. Of course, those who pay for the higher tier will get better seats.

So we can still get season tickets without paying for the SBL? I take it our seats would not be guaranteed for the next season unless we forked over 3k? We would be stuck sitting wherever?

Of course you can. Just don't expect to get the best seats, that's all. As it is right now your seat location is not guaranteed. STH's usually don't get moved, but there is a bye law that gives them the right to move you if need be. By "move" though I mean maybe 1 or 2 seats to the left or right. The generally ask you first though if you don't mind being moved a few feet in one direction or the other. I doubt you would be stuck sitting "wherever". Don't expect your seat location to move very much, if at all, unless you make a request.

How does paying 3k a seat help the average fan?

Who said it was about the average fan?

Even if I wanted to resell my 49er tix, I would have to charge astronomical prices. 3k divvied up over 10 years equals an extra $30 per seat I'd have to charge. Or, it adds $60 to my game-day budget.

Yeah, but with a SBL expect awesome seats. You won't have any problem reselling them.

Putting 6k on a credit card just piles on interest. There's $100 a month down the tubes. And I'd still have to squirrel away $1500 a year (or more by then) to pay for the stinking tickets.

If you have to put it on a CC, and you can't pay it off fast, then you can't afford the SBL. The advantage you have right now though is that you're already thinking about it. START SAVING YOUR MONEY NOW and you won't have to worry about having the money when the time comes.

So how many people would be willing to fork over a 1-time fee of $3000 (per seat) to guarantee their spot?

A lot, bro. This is the Bay Area. Lots of people have that kind of money to throw around. It's not just about guaranteeing your spot either. What it's really about is getting the best seats.

How many people would take their chances on non-SBL seats?

Anyone who doesn't want to pay for a SBL for whatever reason. Whatever seats you end up with, you will most likely get the option of holding onto them, or upgrading after the season is over. I don't expect that policy to change.

I hope they keep the SBL prices at around $1500 ea. (match your tix cost for different areas in the stadium). That would be reasonable and financing assistance would be appreciated.

Not a chance. If $3,000+ is way too much for you then just plan on getting non-SBL season tickets. As for financial assistance.............. :falldownlaugh:


When the time comes, STH's are going to be contacted in order of seniority and asked if they want to purchase SBL's. If they accept, they will have access to the best seats in the stadium. If they decline, they will get to pick from another list available areas. I'm sure the team will withhold some of the better seats for long time STH's who cannot afford a SBL. Don't count on there being a lot of really good non-SBL seats though. If you have not been getting STH's for a long time, and you don't want to fork over the extra money, don't count on getting seats between the 30's that are down low.

STH's will have first dibs on the SBL's. Any SBL's that do not get claimed by current STH's will be sold publicly. Thus, if 100% of the available SBL's are not claimed, it is possible for a first time STH to jump over current STH's who don't want to pay the money.

I don't think it's a great thing, or a fair thing necessarily. But money buys access in this society. Current STH's who can shrug off the SBL fees are in the best position. Long time STH's who can't afford a SBL, or who don't want to pay the money are probably going to fare the worst. Start saving now. There's still plenty of time. Plan on 5K per seat for the SBL and the tickets just to be safe.

[smoking_rubber]

5k per seat?! OMG.

That's sad. It's sad because it will likely preclude many of the "Average" fans. It'll be like trying to get tickets to a Lakers game. Only the rich my apply.

Times are a changin! Or maybe they're just coming back around.

When I was a young pup I dreamed of someday being a season-ticket holder. It was a dream that seemed out of reach. The waiting list was legendary. Fortunately for me, a few bad years made it possible to realize my childhood dream. Now it feels like I'm almost on the outside looking in again.

Saving now is good advise.

I hope there will be some entity that steps up to assist SBL holders with buying and reselling those extra event tickets. I just want good seats for niner games and I couldn't care less about securing hot concert tix. (My nieces might feel differently about that though.)

[Coldrain85]

5k per seat?! OMG.

That's sad. It's sad because it will likely preclude many of the "Average" fans. It'll be like trying to get tickets to a Lakers game. Only the rich my apply.

I don't know if it's quite that bad. Lots of people may just bite it and charge 2 seats on the visa. Maybe find a way to pay for 2 seats, and charge another pair. That's what I'm hoping for. I don't want to get only 2 seats, but potentially having to come up with 20k for 4 seats is a chunk of change. Hell, that's a down payment on a house in Packer land. Not in CA though. We pay more for the good vibes, and the good weather.

With the 5k number, keep in mind that I'm including the seats in that as well. What's the point of just buying the license w/o seats, right? The Eagles charged $1530-3145 when their new stadium opened. So, I'm thinking 4k is probably close to the upper limit for the license alone. Figure another 1k for the seats. I'm sure the 49ers will also offer tiered pricing as well. The Eagles sold SBL's for about 40% of their seats, btw.

What I'm wondering is will there be enough SBL's for those who want them. I expect there to be some turnover when all of this eventually happens, and a lot of 1st year STH's will jump on. Demand for ST's will easily sell out the new stadium, but the number of current STH's will probably go down. I've talked to quite a few people about it at the game, and opinions about moving with the team are mixed.

Fortunately for me, a few bad years made it possible to realize my childhood dream. Now it feels like I'm almost on the outside looking in again.

No you're not. You're set if you're already a STH. Like I said above, there's going to be some turnover. Some long time STH's are most likely not going to renew. Not everyone ahead of you will want to get SBL's either. That means you will be up there on the list when the time comes and the ticket office asks you if you're in or out. If you can come up with at least 3k per seat I'm sure you will have many options. That's assuming 2k for the license + the tickets. Don't miss out on this. You may not get another chance for a very long time if you don't get in on it initially. Save, or at least have your cards paid off by then so you can abuse them for a good cause.


I hope there will be some entity that steps up to assist SBL holders with buying and reselling those extra event tickets. I just want good seats for niner games and I couldn't care less about securing hot concert tix. (My nieces might feel differently about that though.)

Oh, there will be plenty of people willing to scoop up good seats. Ticketmaster recently started allowing STH's to post their extra tickets for events. I'm sure they will provide similar assistance for any game or event you want to sell. They charge a 10% commission based on the price that you want to get for the ticket. You can pass that off to the buyer, and you never have to mail anything. TM reprints the tickets and mails them to the buyer, and you get a instant credit in your account. I've already used it a couple of times this year with an extra seat that I have. And you never know, you might just want to hold onto some of those other event tickets and stoke your friends and family.

I'm sure we will know more by 2010. It's still a ways off.

[smoking_rubber]

I guess knowing about it this far in advance softens the blow. If they announce the final numbers soon enough, I'll have enough time to save or whatever I need to do.

It's still a LONG way off.

I only have 2 tickets, so I'm not in too much trouble. Hopefully, there will be good seats available when it's my turn.

FYI: I just used TM ticket forwarding for the Baltimore game and it works great. Cost me $5, but that's cheaper than next-day delivery.

[sats0]

STH for 3 years.

Yes, I would pay $2k per seat for a SBL. $5k - unlikely, unless I win the lotto between now and when they go on sale.

From what I understood from the original letter from the team, SBLs would be charged for some of the seats, but not all of them.

The other key difference between this scheme and the Raider's PSL is that their PSLs were for 10 years, after which fans were expected to repurchase them!

Assuming the SBL will apply to the better seats in the stadium, take a look at what current STHs want in return for their seat rights at Monster Park. They would recover their $2k investment in the seats no problem if they sold the rights.

I know Santa Clara is really far for the fans from the North Bay, but still take a look at the proposed site sometime from an objective point of view. It really is perfect from the point of view of access to the stadium, public transportation, weather, etc.

[Coldrain85]

From what I understood from the original letter from the team, SBLs would be charged for some of the seats, but not all of them.

The Eagles offered SBL's for 40% of the available seats. I assume that the 49ers will have a similar arrangement. Maybe even 50%, but definitely not more than that. I'm guessing that most STH's are either not going to want a SBL, or they won't be able to afford the expense.



Assuming the SBL will apply to the better seats in the stadium

The highest tier SBL's will apply to the best seats in the stadium. Otheriwse, why would people want to shell out that much cash? I'd laugh in their faces if they tried to get me to pay thousands in SBL fees for end zone seats. I expect to be between the 30's, or forget it.

[tuffy]

Is this how they are going to pay for the new stadium? Having quite a few seats as a season ticket holder, I sure am interested in knowing that part of the new stadium deal. STH since 1979

[Coldrain85]

This is part of how they are going to pay for the stadium. SBL revenue will account for 5-10% of the total bill. People like you who have been a STH for a long time will probably have an opportunity to get decent seats w/o having to purchase SBL's. I assume that most of the available seats between the 20's and the lower end zone areas are going to be reserved for SBL's, and a small # of long time STH's who don't want to shell out that much cash.

[Peter Proud]

This is part of how they are going to pay for the stadium. SBL revenue will account for 5-10% of the total bill. People like you who have been a STH for a long time will probably have an opportunity to get decent seats w/o having to purchase SBL's. I assume that most of the available seats between the 20's and the lower end zone areas are going to be reserved for SBL's, and a small # of long time STH's who don't want to shell out that much cash.

As of this date 10/12/2007, I haven't read anywhere that long-time STH's would be exempt from SBLs.

[TheWiz]

As of this date 10/12/2007, I haven't read anywhere that lond-time STH's would be exempt from SBLs.

I agree with that fact.

While the poster is true that the team is only looking for a small percentage of SBL support to pay for the proposed Santa Clara deal, no such special benefits are planned for 'long time STH holders'. It's nice but not realistic. If anything, diehard STH's are exactly the people whom the team needs to buy SBLs to finance the deal.

Just to give a brief and very crude idea of financing...

160M = Portion paid by the city of Santa Clara through investments, bonds, and cash outside of their cities normal operating funds.
150M = An NFL loan through a new program. Just to make things clear, these loans exist and are given regularly but the G3 program ended and got tapped out of funds a year ago. It is expected that the league will institute a similar program in '08 or '09 and it would jump at the chance to give the cash in a similarly styled loan to replace Candlestick.
150M = Stadium naming rights. It's not unexpected to think a stadium in the heart of silicone valley couldn't get a 10 year-15M/year type of deal. This is on the high end but then again, the NFL loan is on the low end. Such a deal would largely be used to pay off loan debts and interest.
150M = Coporate deals. Exclusive rights to who provides the soft drinks, pizzas, and hot dogs at each game. How about rights to publish our weekly game guides. Include advertisements along sidelines and on the big screens and on the loud speakers and the cash rolls in.

So far: 610M. That's about two-thirds of the cost.

200M = Owner investment. Between out of pocket cash and selling properties and investment the owner are willing to not only forgo a LOT of profits such as naming and corporate rights but also this amount to get the deal done. Keep in mind, a good amount of this comes from simply pooling the teams '08-'12 season profits.

The team is giving concession profits and parking profits to the stadium authority to help pay for stadium maintenance. So, the team has plans to produce 810M, the remainder to be found amongst other endeavors. Ticket taxes, regional penny taxes, and SBLs are examples of comparable investments to find another 100M-150M likely to make the stadium deal work.

A better question is now how will they find another possible 100M to buy the amusement park or perhaps another 130M-150M to buy the park and destroy it for parking space?

[Coldrain85]

I'd like to think that they will set aside a small number of seats for long time STH's who can't afford to shell out 5 figures for 4 seats. Some of these folks are retired and on fixed incomes. I see no problem with a 30+ year STH getting a shot at decent seats. The reality is that there are not that many of them to begin with, and even fewer of them are going to want to renew if SC ends up being the site. Regardless, long time STH's will have first crack at getting tickets, and I'm sure there will be some decent seats available early on that won't require a SBL. What it all depends on though is how many seats they allocate for SBL's, and I'm guessing that could be a lot given the fact that much of the greater Bay Area is affluent. I don't know if I could see it being more than 50%, but that number accounts for pretty much every available seat between the 20's and then some.

Does anyone here think that current STH's will buy up all of the available SBL's? I don't. Some people will choose not to renew if the team moves to SC, and others will not want to purchase SBL's. I think that anyone who is currently a STH will have a shot at getting pretty good seats if they are willing to pay the SBL fee.


A better question is now how will they find another possible 100M to buy the amusement park or perhaps another 130M-150M to buy the park and destroy it for parking space?

If the 49ers choose to buy Great America, I don't see them tearing it down assuming that the park is profitable. This would be the only major sports stadium in the US with a large amusement park on site, and it may very well be the only one in the world. It's quite an opportunity. I think that if the property has major potential for profitability, then the extra 100 million could be raised through loans, other investors, and the city of SC who would stand to gain millions in tax revenue alone.

Buying the land only to tear down the park seems kind of lavish unless the 49ers have a solid redevelopment plan. Finally, if Great America turns out to be a bad investment idea once the studies are completed, then that kind of kills to SC deal unless Cedar Fair is willing to lower their price. If Great America isn't really making a profit then I expect Cedar Fair will want to get out and will be more willing to make a deal.

[Peter Proud]

Wether or not current STH's will pay for SBLs will be determined by many different factors:

Cost per seat
Location
Financing options
Transferability

While I anticipate renewing my Season Tickets, the location of mandatory SBL assessments, cost per seat, financing options, and transferability will play heavily into my decision......as I'm sure it will for everyone.

Who knows, it everything is favorable, I may change the location of my seats (5) or even put them in 2 different locations. While my seats are currently all together, they have 2 different accts. My 3 seats have a different senority date that my 2 seats.

[ethanh]

Wether or not current STH's will pay for SBLs will be determined by many different factors:

Cost per seat
Location
Financing options
Transferability

While I anticipate renewing my Season Tickets, the location of mandatory SBL assessments, cost per seat, financing options, and transferability will play heavily into my decision......as I'm sure it will for everyone.

Who knows, it everything is favorable, I may change the location of my seats (5) or even put them in 2 different locations. While my seats are currently all together, they have 2 different accts. My 3 seats have a different senority date that my 2 seats.
Couldn't you add your 2 seats to your longest seniority seats on one account? I had 2 seats for a while then I added a 3rd and 2 years ago I added a 4th seat. Are all 4 of my seats now under seniority from the first year I became a STH?

[Peter Proud]

Couldn't you add your 2 seats to your longest seniority seats on one account? I had 2 seats for a while then I added a 3rd and 2 years ago I added a 4th seat. Are all 4 of my seats now under seniority from the first year I became a STH?

Maybe I could....I've never tried.

I started with 2 seats in Lower Box 7 the 1st year and was able to add a single seat that was right next to mine after the end of the season.

The other 2 seats were bought 2 years after the 1st year and were in Lower Reserve 7. The year after purchasing them I requested they be moved as close as possible the the 3 seats in Lower Box. They put them in the row just in front of me.

If I can add the 2 seats to the same acct. as the original, I would gain 2 years senority. When the new stadium is built (wherever) it would move 2 of my seats to a higher senority number....jumping them over other STH's.

As long as I could split those up at the new stadium if I wished and keep the same senority number but 2 different acct. numbers again it would be great.

One advantage of having 2 acct. numbers is if the 49ers go to a Super Bowl, I would have 2 different chances to score seats thru the teams lottery for Super Bowl seats.

[Coldrain85]

Wether or not current STH's will pay for SBLs will be determined by many different factors:
Cost per seat
Location
Financing options
Transferability


The SBL's are going to be transferable. That much has already been established. As for financing options, talk to the credit card company about that. I think it's comical to assume that the 49ers are going to offer financing for SBL's/ticket orders. It's a football team, not a bank. There's a good chance they will offer different SBL tiers to fit a few more budgets. I would guess somewhere in the 2k-4k range. Who knows though. They might have even higher priced SBL's available.

Location will also be a deciding factor for me. We all have our own definition of what we consider good seats. I just hope that something decent will be available when it's my turn. Cost isn't an issue, but I won't bother if the seats are not what I consider good. I expect to be in those seats for a long time once I get them since people who bought the SBL's will probably all want to stay put for a while and not transfer them.

If the team continues to suck like it has since Young retired, I don't think that anyone who is a current STH, and is willing to pay up to 4k for a SBL is going to have trouble getting good seats. If the team moves to SC, a good number of STH's who I've spoken with at the game said that they probably won't renew. Even if it's 10% that's significant. Not everyone is going to want SBL's either, and having to buy them in order to get good seats will drive a few others away as well. Some people simply won't be able to afford them. I don't think current STH's will even buy up all of the SBL's. I'm sure there will be some available for south bay locals who jump on when the stadium is finished.

[smoking_rubber]

. . . if the 49ers go to a Super Bowl, I would have 2 different chances to score seats thru the teams lottery for Super Bowl seats.

SUPERBOWL?! he-he . . . he said SUPERBOWL! :banana5: