Great America Owner says "no" to SC stadium

[sj niner]

I just heard (Tues. 9th) on 49er flagship station KNBR that the comp. (Cedar Oaks or something like that) that owns Great America, the site the
49ers have picked for OUR new stadium, will officially veto the idea for a stadium there..

What's interesting is that they quoted Lisa Lang who said the 49ers may BUY Great America and the land surrounding it for the stadium..Cedar Oaks has said they may be interested in selling..

The way I see it, it can be either good or bad..Buy the land..You have established location with access in place..(Several freeways, lightrail, train station all close by), would be cheaper to upgrade electrical, sewer and other neccesities, be able to make extra $$$ from amusement park next door during and after football season..

The bad: Extra millions may cut into stadium budget and/or raise the PSL's for season tixs to an even higher amount..

Don't buy land: Puts the 49ers back to square 1; looking for another location..PLEASE don't mention Hunter's Point; the 49ers have said numerous times that HP is not a viable option..IMO, it opens the dreaded door that our 49ers could even leave the immediate Bay Area..

So what do you guys think?

[born49]

They said the same thing right now on the NEWS.LA 49ers dosent sound good at all:down: ...When is the NFL going to step in and help the 49ers get a staidium?..This is just pathetic

[Fromthe3rdRow]

Oooohh. And the plot thickens!!

This is a very, very interesting development.

IMO, Cedar Fair was trying to hold the stadium deal hostage by playing the parking lot card.

And now the Niners are calling their bluff.

Can't wait to see the next move.

[ethanh]

This is a joke or a bluff, right? The 49ers will never buy that amusement park just so they can build in a spot that less then perfect? Anyone who thinks the 49ers buying an amusement park is a good idea is touched in the head. My beloved 49ers are I'm afraid circling the drain on this one. Sell the team York!. :help: :throw: :tearup:

[ethanh]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/10/09/sports/s173213D31.DTL
OMG it is true!
The San Francisco 49ers said Tuesday the team might be willing to buy the Great America theme park next to its proposed new stadium in Santa Clara to resolve a lingering parking dispute.
The announcement came as the amusement park's owners, Cedar Fair Entertainment Co. of Sandusky, Ohio, planned to formally oppose the current plan for the stadium.
Team spokeswoman Lisa Lang said Cedar Fair recently informed the team of its intentions and plans to send out a press release detailing its opposition on Wednesday.
A Cedar Fair spokeswoman did not immediately return a call for comment.
Lang said Cedar Fair has indicated it might be willing to sell Great America and appears to be trying to drive up the potential sale price of the theme park.
"It's a negotiating ploy on their part," Lang said. "We believe they ultimately want to sell this park. We're a football team. We don't operate theme parks. But if that's what it would take, and there's a reasonable price, then it's something we would consider."

Does Great America even make money? Last time I went the Demon was still the best they had, is that still the case? I am glad Lang had the sense to say the 49ers are no going to run an amusement park. Marine World > Great America

[winorlose]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/09/BA9KSNDN3.DTL&tsp=1

Pretty big hit. Hopefully SF doesn't slack off due to this. Of course, if the Yorks purchase the theme park then that pretty much seals the deal.

[49Faithful]

It would be cool to make it a 49er theme park. Not sure if it will all go down but I suspect we will be hearing from the Wiz anytime now. :hoppy:

[ethanh]

So what is everyone waiting for THEWIZ to post to decide if buying Great America is a good idea or not? I'll save you the trouble this is a horrible idea. The park is worth 114 million and theme parks are in attendance dropping every year.
Will they find someone else to buy it off them after or before they kill attendance for a year to build? NO
Next will they make the needed investments by adding new rides to help boost attendance and make it sellable once the stadium is built? Why they are a NFL team.
Trying to force a stadium into a small, less then perfect area in SC was already bad, now it is just plain off the charts horrible.

[sf49ergirl85]

I thought them moving to freaking Great America was a farce anyway.

[Teke]

Thanks God we're not stuck with that lousy stadium.

[Coldrain85]

Thanks God we're not stuck with that lousy stadium.

What lousy stadium? As of right now all I have seen are concept photos.

This move by the Great America people is total crap. They just want to sell the theme park, and they are trying to twist some arms by holding the land hostage. Buying Great America has "bad business decision" written all over it. We'll just have to wait and see where this goes, but those of you who automatically think that the SC stadium deal is dead just because of this SF Gate article are getting a little ahead of yourselves.

[Fromthe3rdRow]

So what is everyone waiting for THEWIZ to post to decide if buying Great America is a good idea or not? I'll save you the trouble this is a horrible idea. The park is worth 114 million and theme parks are in attendance dropping every year.
Will they find someone else to buy it off them after or before they kill attendance for a year to build? NO
Next will they make the needed investments by adding new rides to help boost attendance and make it sellable once the stadium is built? Why they are a NFL team.
Trying to force a stadium into a small, less then perfect area in SC was already bad, now it is just plain off the charts horrible.
Maybe, but if the team did buy the amusement park, their parking lot issues would vanish. They could sell off the rides for scrap metal, level the park, leave the power substation where it is, add new parking lots, and sell whatever was left over to some developer and make a bundle. (Shhhh - don't let Lou Wolf get wind of this deal - it is exactly the type of thing he loves to do.....)

[Fromthe3rdRow]

What lousy stadium? As of right now all I have seen are concept photos.

This move by the Great America people is total crap. They just want to sell the theme park, and they are trying to twist some arms by holding the land hostage. Buying Great America has "bad business decision" written all over it. We'll just have to wait and see where this goes, but those of you who automatically think that the SC stadium deal is dead just because of this SF Gate article are getting a little ahead of yourselves.

Very true. SF Gate has been notorious for reporting the facts with a little bit of bias sprinkled in for good measure.

[ethanh]

Maybe, but if the team did buy the amusement park, their parking lot issues would vanish. They could sell off the rides for scrap metal, level the park, leave the power substation where it is, add new parking lots, and sell whatever was left over to some developer and make a bundle. (Shhhh - don't let Lou Wolf get wind of this deal - it is exactly the type of thing he loves to do.....)

Good point that is what they should do with the land to make the area big enough. But that would bring a whole new fight as people would try to save Great America. Imagine all the zitty preteens crying that they have no place to hang out and it is all the horrible 49ers fault.

[Fromthe3rdRow]

Good point that is what they should do with the land to make the area big enough. But that would bring a whole new fight as people would try to save Great America. Imagine all the zitty preteens crying that they have no place to hang out and it is all the horrible 49ers fault.After a child was killed at the park this past summer, (the second fatality in recent memory) I doubt their supporters would achieve much traction...

[ethanh]

After a child was killed at the park this past summer, (the second fatality in recent memory) I doubt their supporters would achieve much traction...
Maybe, but do the 49ers really need to fight this seemingly lengthy uphill battle? After all they got SF's attention and they want seem to want to make a deal bad.

[Fromthe3rdRow]

Maybe, but do the 49ers really need to fight this seemingly lengthy uphill battle? After all they got SF's attention and they want seem to want to make a deal bad.
I think it really depends on how much Cedar Fair wants to unload this property. I mean, California is a little out of their geographical region. They seem like a nice family owned company out of Sandusky who does a great job with their original amusement park. Their attempt at expansion into other markets hasn't really played out. Withdrawing back into their core business may be a wise idea and they could be willing to unload the property at a price suitable for building a parking lot.....you never know. We will all have to wait and see.

(PS - I doubt their HQ is really in Sandusky - I have no idea - but it sounds better than "East Armpit, New York" or wherever their HQ might really be located.)

[young tone]

Now if we do happen to buy the place, would York see more dollar signs by keeping it or just sell the rides and get rid of Great America? Getting rid of Great America shuts up everybody since that will make plenty of parking...

[krueger70]

Looks like this Santa Clara idea is blowing up!:stirthepot:

[loren]

Stay in Candlestick forever. Paint it nicer. Who cares about a new stadium? We won many a good game on that field. What is the infactuation with a new joint?

I have been to nice stadiums. What difference was it to me?? I don't own it. It's not mine. I don't live there. I don't have any investment in it. It did not make me enjoy it better, in fact it made it worse.

Now, I do like the Staubach-JOnes Stadium, it has balls. 1 Billion bux. Now that is what I am talking about! Balls baby.

[TheWiz]

I've got to agree with several people on both sides of this argument. As I said back in the spring when Cedar Fair first tried this ploy, they're in it for profit. They know that if all that stands between the team ands a stadium is rights to the property, they have a chance to unload the stadium.

To one degree, this is a positive. If the team buys Great America, there will be no more Great America. Which is why any sale won't go down for a while, especially to let the property devalue another few seasons. The park I imagine would get leveled as part of construction and the result would be a massive eyesore of a parking lot. But at least debates over tailgating space and on-site parking will be calmed as parking at the site would be even better than Candlestick.

To another degree, it's not an easy hurdle. The city still hasn't come up with a plan on how to pay its portion of the finances. Buying the park throws another 100M+ onto the finances and I don't want to guess how much it will take to destroy the park, level it, clean it up and pave it. Where another 150M+ most likely will come from is beyond me. Also, moving the stadium to a more central location so the lot is around it would raise prices another 25M+ since the cost and labor of laying down infrastructure would increase as the stadium is moved away from the convention center. So, a bottom line estimate of 850M to pay for a stadium jumps to a minimal 1B and still requires city support.

I think the opportunity to buy the park makes this an even more attractive location. After all, the site is already superior in highway access and infrastructure costs are very cheap at the moment. If parking and tailgating are no longer issues and the actual land the stadium is on triples in size it's hard to knock the idea. Outside of "It's not in the city", I can't see a reason against it

The downside, which is big, is that while the idea of that whole area for a park is nice, it's also less likely to happen. Just to review the Santa Clara deal...

1) The team is giving up a larger portion of its own profits and cash to build it than any other NFL deal ever done.
2) They're selling out concession and advertising rights, concession profits, naming rights, parking income, and nearly every source of income except ticket sales to just get the stadium and pay for maintenance.
3) Even after all of that and a huge amount that will need to be paid directly by the owners and through an antiticipated NFL loan, the city needs to offer up over 160M.

Now, we all know the Yorks are not multi-billionaires. Throwing 150M into the pot is no easy task. Pretty much any and all revenue streams have been put into the current deal, personal finances are strained, and still public investment is needed. So where another 150M+ will come from is beyond me. I think the more hurdles that get put into print as well also convince more Santa Clarans that it's a longshot to begin with.

I think the biggest problem this situation produces is this: It begs the question that if the Yorks can dig deeper and suddenly find 150M to pull it off, why do they need 160M+ in public support? It also begs the question if it's worth it to build in Santa Clara at such a high expense and how that gets weighed against a Hunter's Point Stadium.

[Teke]

So who's going to pay for this theme park if the 49ers buy it? Essentially the fans will be paying for it through SBL's, taxes, and higher prices for everything including tickets, concessions, and parking. The York's aren't going to buy the park unless it can somehow be worked into the deal and partially paid for by the public. Who's signing off on that?

[Fromthe3rdRow]

So who's going to pay for this theme park if the 49ers buy it? Essentially the fans will be paying for it through SBL's, taxes, and higher prices for everything including tickets, concessions, and parking. The York's aren't going to buy the park unless it can somehow be worked into the deal and partially paid for by the public. Who's signing off on that?
Those are interesting questions!

I guess we are all going to have to stay tuned in order to see the next installment!

[Blue Bird]

There's always the L.A. Coliseum... :whistling: :fishing:

[Fromthe3rdRow]

There's always the L.A. Coliseum... :whistling: :fishing:
Well, no. The Coliseum itself is unsuitable for an NFL franchise.

However, the L.A. market ..... unfortunately, that's another story. Sad, but trure.

[ethanh]

"Carmen Policy? This is Mr. York."
"Hi, how is it going Mr. York"
"Good, pretty good aside form a team in term-oil and a stadium deal in limbo. So I was wondering.............."

[estrine]

I can not wait for the new Gold Rush roller coaster ride at Great America. Now that the Niner owners are willing to pay fair market value for the Santa Clara Theme Park.

[TheWiz]

So who's going to pay for this theme park if the 49ers buy it? Essentially the fans will be paying for it through SBL's, taxes, and higher prices for everything including tickets, concessions, and parking. The York's aren't going to buy the park unless it can somehow be worked into the deal and partially paid for by the public. Who's signing off on that?

Interesting questions but it can't work that way. The team already has signed off on all profits from concessions and parking. All of those profits would go to the Santa Clara stadium authority to help pay for maintenance. You also can't pay for a stadium by using ticket sales from future games unless the Yorks want to take on a really high cost loan. Besides, they already have nearly every dime from 2008-2011 season profits tied into the current deal to help them pay their end of it. Taxes are also out of the question. The city refuses to accept a ticket tax for events and even a regional penny sales tax would get shot down by the public I'm sure.

That leaves it with the fans having to pay for it and that will never work. First of all, most fans already hate the obligatory hike in tickets for a new stadium. Even an extra, and large, 10% hike to tickets on top of that won't cover 150M for a long time. Secondly, the higher the SBL's, the worse it gets. Teams can pass off some money onto fans, but requiring even an additional 100M from SBLs will drive away a LOT of fans, especially if a Hunter's Point deal wouldn't require such high costs out of their own pockets.

The money has to either come from tickets and SBLs or the owners. We know the owners can't easily afford it and putting it on the fans will easily jeopardize the deal to an unacceptable level.

Funny how this works out. People think we're only using Santa Clara to get the best possible deal at Hunter's Point. As time goes on, if Cedar Fair's price is too high, we can threaten to walk away and just move to Hunter's Point. That leaves them with possibly getting nothing for the park and it will drive their price down. So we can use Hunter's Point to get a better deal in Santa Clara.

[Nevyn]

This is a joke or a bluff, right? The 49ers will never buy that amusement park just so they can build in a spot that less then perfect? Anyone who thinks the 49ers buying an amusement park is a good idea is touched in the head. My beloved 49ers are I'm afraid circling the drain on this one. Sell the team York!. :help: :throw: :tearup:

Well, I'm no expert on the layout, but if the niners did own great america it could certainly resolve some of the issues that MAKE the spot "less than perfect", couldn't they?

[Tovey21]

I just heard (Tues. 9th) on 49er flagship station KNBR that the comp. (Cedar Oaks or something like that) that owns Great America, the site the
49ers have picked for OUR new stadium, will officially veto the idea for a stadium there..

What's interesting is that they quoted Lisa Lang who said the 49ers may BUY Great America and the land surrounding it for the stadium..Cedar Oaks has said they may be interested in selling..

The way I see it, it can be either good or bad..Buy the land..You have established location with access in place..(Several freeways, lightrail, train station all close by), would be cheaper to upgrade electrical, sewer and other neccesities, be able to make extra $$$ from amusement park next door during and after football season..

The bad: Extra millions may cut into stadium budget and/or raise the PSL's for season tixs to an even higher amount..

Don't buy land: Puts the 49ers back to square 1; looking for another location..PLEASE don't mention Hunter's Point; the 49ers have said numerous times that HP is not a viable option..IMO, it opens the dreaded door that our 49ers could even leave the immediate Bay Area..

So what do you guys think?

York said he's keeping the team in the Bay area, so they would have to make it work at HP.

[ethanh]

Funny how this works out. People think we're only using Santa Clara to get the best possible deal at Hunter's Point. As time goes on, if Cedar Fair's price is too high, we can threaten to walk away and just move to Hunter's Point. That leaves them with possibly getting nothing for the park and it will drive their price down. So we can use Hunter's Point to get a better deal in Santa Clara.

Well if Great America is a bad company and is going to lose money the 49ers should not buy it. Like you said if they wait 3 years it may fold on its own. If the 49ers do buy they wont be able to sell it off until the stadium is done since construction is sure to impact attendance.

If they are going to just level it for parking then isn't 100 million too high a cost for scrap? Won't it take longer to redevelop the area after? (Who knows they may find toxic substances). Plus they still wont own the land with that purchase and will be on the hook for the rent. You figure Santa Clara likes the 5 million it gets annually from Great America.
Why would they go through all that when in the Carmen Policy article it was stated.
The arrangement allows the Yorks to continue pursuing the South Bay stadium while San Francisco works to assure the league that it has an alternative plan lined up in case the South Bay effort falls flat.
It also means that the Yorks won't actually have to campaign for the San Francisco deal - a commitment that virtually would force them to stay in the city if voters approved the plan.
"So we will be stomping the streets of San Francisco and campaigning, while they sit back and let everyone do the heavy lifting," Policy said.
Much of that lifting, by the way, is already being done by Lennar's local development rep, Kofi Bonner, who - yes - worked under Policy in Cleveland.

[ManCans]

IMO, the Yorks' best move at this point is to waste no more time on the Santa Clara site, and start working whole-heartedly with the City of San Francisco to develop the Hunter's Point site.

[Teke]

Policy makes it seem like it's going to be tough work. You know this deal making type stuff is second nature to him. :dance3:

[Fromthe3rdRow]

"Carmen Policy? This is Mr. York."
"Hi, how is it going Mr. York"
"Good, pretty good aside form a team in term-oil and a stadium deal in limbo. So I was wondering.............."
Apparently, Carmen's reply was , "What's it worth to ya? I'm already entertaining bids from Lennar."

[Fromthe3rdRow]

Policy makes it seem like it's going to be tough work. You know this deal making type stuff is second nature to him. :dance3:Dude - it's all about who you know, not what you know - and where is the best place to buy people lunch, or dinner, or several rounds of drinks, and maybe a little light entertainment after.

All that and a six figure salary to boot. Nice gig if you can get it .....

[TheWiz]

Well, I'm no expert on the layout, but if the niners did own great america it could certainly resolve some of the issues that MAKE the spot "less than perfect", couldn't they?

That's the idea. With no Great America issues on parking vanish. The actual surface parking and continuous space south of the stadium would be massive. Needs for corporate lots or Mission College lots would no longer exist either. It also changes the dynamics of the site. Instead of pushing the stadium into a corner they could move it towards the middle and have a much more symmetrical site. The site would more or less have absolutely no faults except that it's not in the city. The problem is it's a much bigger price tag.

York said he's keeping the team in the Bay area, so they would have to make it work at HP.

Or the team could find another secondary site.

Well if Great America is a bad company and is going to lose money the 49ers should not buy it. Like you said if they wait 3 years it may fold on its own. If the 49ers do buy they wont be able to sell it off until the stadium is done since construction is sure to impact attendance.

If they are going to just level it for parking then isn't 100 million too high a cost for scrap? Won't it take longer to redevelop the area after? (Who knows they may find toxic substances). Plus they still wont own the land with that purchase and will be on the hook for the rent. You figure Santa Clara likes the 5 million it gets annually from Great America.
Why would they go through all that when in the Carmen Policy article it was stated.

If they wait 3 years, it will well past 2010 and it will be too late to start building a stadium. Cedar Fair owns the lease to the lot. No rights means no staidum building and no deal, period. If the team buys it they don't want the park or to resell it, an amusement park probably has little turn around value, they want the land. Around 114M is what the property is worth, it's value is not dependant on your intentions for it. Whether you buy a car for Sunday driving or a demolition derby, the dealership still quotes the same price. The actuall pricetag I'm sure will drop since Cedar Fair will be wise to get something more than nothing but they know they can also hold out and it affects our deal with Santa Clara. I doubt it will take 2 years to tear down Cedar Park. Once its cleared out all they need to do is prep and pave a lot over it which won't take long at all.

Also, Cedar Fair only pays a few hundred thousand for all of its parking lots to the city. Once we put a stadium on the lot, we'd also agree to a 5M+ per year lease. The city will also get to keep the profits from the parking fees to park on that massive lot we're renting from them. Also, we may also not even need all of that space and be able to let the city lease some of the southern portion to commerical enterprise. It's too bad the owners are so near-sighted on this issue because it would be a great place for a team themed restaurant


IMO, the Yorks' best move at this point is to waste no more time on the Santa Clara site, and start working whole-heartedly with the City of San Francisco to develop the Hunter's Point site.

I don't see how Hunter's Point even requires team effort if Lennar is even hiring their own politics team. There are three things the city and Lennar can do to instantly improve their chances.

i) If they're so certain the site will be perfectly clean, they should vouch for it. A viable team concern is expenses and trouble due to the site if it turns out to still be polluted once construction is started. If Lennar was so willing to build a massive, high cost parking garage on Candlestick, they should be willing to guarantee the site cleanliness. Put it down on paper that costs incurred due to environmental problems at the site that Lennar will reimburse the team.

ii) Actually come up with a traffic solution. I'm not sold on their preliminary findings and no serious study shows the site will have good traffic flow. If the city steps up and offers to widen some roads and find some way to create a faster highway access and outflow from the immediate area, that would be a plus.

iii) Find a way, any way, to accomodate a team practice facility. Part of not moving to Santa Clara will likely include us relocating team facilities. If we were at Hunter's Point, I'd love to see new headquarters at Candlestick Point. Offer to cover the costs of tearing down the 'stick and allow that land to be rentable at a pittance for a 25 year lease at Hunter's Point. The team could build a whole headquarters, an indoor field, have 2 outside fields and have it adjacent to a team museum and remove the stadium but leave the field standing with high school level bleachers around it. Fans could step on the same turf as Montana and Rice and other heroes of years past.

[Coldrain85]

Those are all good points. The fact that Cedar Fair is intentionally getting in the way of the SC deal tells me that the 49ers should just go ahead with the Hunter's Point proposal for now. There's no way that the city of SC will let this potential windfall walk away. I'm sure they will press Cedar Fair to quit stalling and name their price.

There are many options as to what the 49ers can do with all that land. If Great America really is financially solvent over the long term, perhaps they can incorporate the stadium into the entire property, and make something really spectacular. I think the probability of this happening is pretty low unless York sells the team to someone with deeper pockets.

The other option is to tear down Great America, develop some of the land, and use the rest for stadium related purposes. Again though, the problem is the expense. Either someone with deep pockets needs to step in, or the city of SC needs to step in and carry some of the load. I don't see York up and selling the team, and with Great America thrown in on the deal the whole thing becomes complicated.

I would prefer it if the stadium is built in SC. It would mean a longer drive for me, but the upside is enough for me to get behind it. The ultimate goal however, is to get a stadium built. Right now the Hunter's Point proposal seems more viable IF the city of SF agrees to share the load and do their part, starting with the comment below.



ii) Actually come up with a traffic solution. I'm not sold on their preliminary findings and no serious study shows the site will have good traffic flow. If the city steps up and offers to widen some roads and find some way to create a faster highway access and outflow from the immediate area, that would be a plus.

As it is right now, I know that site will have major traffic flow problems. The city needs to provide all of those things you mentioned, along with a BART extension.

One thing we are going to find out in the coming years is what kind of a businessman York really is, and if he has assembled a good team around him. The 49ers have the leverage here. Not SF. Not SC. And especially not Cedar Fair. Both cities will reap huge benefits if a new stadium is built on their turf, and the one who loses out will cry about it later, and kick themselves for not stepping up when they had the chance.

[Niner Jan]

Good, clear, creative thinking, ColdDrain. I always look forward to reading your posts. Welcome to our club!

Niner Mom

[ethanh]

As it is right now, I know that site will have major traffic flow problems. The city needs to provide all of those things you mentioned, along with a BART extension.

One thing we are going to find out in the coming years is what kind of a businessman York really is, and if he has assembled a good team around him. The 49ers have the leverage here. Not SF. Not SC. And especially not Cedar Fair. Both cities will reap huge benefits if a new stadium is built on their turf, and the one who loses out will cry about it later, and kick themselves for not stepping up when they had the chance.

I do not think the 49ers can refocus on Hunters Point unless they are really going to do it. If they were to pull out again during planning they would look 10 times worse then they did the first time. No parking garage excuse is going to cut it. They should just wait until the Hunters Point plan is voted on next June and if it passes jump on 100%. If it doesn't I guess buy Great America.:unsure:

As for traffic, being near a free way or 2 does not mean your traffic problems are solved and there are plenty of stadiums with multiple freeways plus mass transit that have crappy traffic. San Diego comes to mind. Sometimes having a greater distance between lots and freeways works as it can give the proper time to space out the cars. I.E. timed traffic lights entering a freeway. It is going to take serious studies at any site but in the end it should be better then Candlestick.

As long as Hunters Point has multiple exit points from multiple lots it can develop a solid flow out of the area. There are tons of surface streets out of the area that can connect to many onramps to HW280 and HW80.

The T 3rd-street is a far walk from the site and waiting for Bart to build could be close to never. So I am unclear what they would propose for public transit besides busses, maybe a T-line from the China Basin Clatrains to the site could be built.

[smoking_rubber]

There's no way they buy the park and level it. Santa Clara would never go for it. That park is a landmark. They're going to tear down a cash generating tourist attraction to build a parking lot that gets 18-20 days of use per year? And who is going to pay for it?

The team will buy the park and make the new stadium authority run it. That, of course, will not eliminate the parking problems. It will only remove the objection and they'll plow forward. Once the stadium is built and the operation has settled in, they'll unload Great America at a nice profit.

Cedar Fair just wants out from in front of the train. A stadium in their parking lot limits their possibilities for growth and hurts their customer's parking situation. That's not BS. Why would they agree to that? There's really nothing in it for them. The only way they win is by selling. If the 49ers believe that cramming a stadium in that relatively small spot is really in everyone's best interest . . . then let them purchase the park and assume the risk themselves.

Better option: Take the extra 100 mil they would have spent on Great America and select a better site. That extra 100 could go a long way to improving undesirable infrastructure and moving their HQ. I'm still partial to a location in the south bay since that's where all of their current employees reside.

There are plenty of suitable (size wise) locations within 10 miles of Great America. Just jump on Google Earth. Alviso anyone? The costs of new infrastructure pale in comparison to purchasing and leveling Great America. Plus, you wouldn't have to become the team that killed Batman.

[smoking_rubber]

Plus, the one of the difficult parts of new infrastructure is rerouting Light Rail lines. Forget that, bring BART down to the new site on Alviso's shores and Light Rail will have to figure out some kind of minor extension. There's not much room around Great America for BART (if they build a stadium there), so moving to wider pastures benefits many.

[sandiegojoe]

If great America were to remain.. I've gotta imagine it wouldn't be too hard to find a business partner to purchase the property (Just as Paramount and Marriott had in the past) who would be a bit friendlier towards the stadium idea.

I remember when I was a kid and Great America had all of the warner bros characters like bugs bunny and daffy duck. I liked it way better than Disneyland. (Only cause I didn't care about the disney cartoons at the time) I'd love to see them get involved again.

[Nevyn]

There's no way they buy the park and level it. Santa Clara would never go for it. That park is a landmark. They're going to tear down a cash generating tourist attraction to build a parking lot that gets 18-20 days of use per year? And who is going to pay for it?

The team will buy the park and make the new stadium authority run it. That, of course, will not eliminate the parking problems. It will only remove the objection and they'll plow forward. Once the stadium is built and the operation has settled in, they'll unload Great America at a nice profit.

Cedar Fair just wants out from in front of the train. A stadium in their parking lot limits their possibilities for growth and hurts their customer's parking situation. That's not BS. Why would they agree to that? There's really nothing in it for them. The only way they win is by selling. If the 49ers believe that cramming a stadium in that relatively small spot is really in everyone's best interest . . . then let them purchase the park and assume the risk themselves.

Better option: Take the extra 100 mil they would have spent on Great America and select a better site. That extra 100 could go a long way to improving undesirable infrastructure and moving their HQ. I'm still partial to a location in the south bay since that's where all of their current employees reside.

There are plenty of suitable (size wise) locations within 10 miles of Great America. Just jump on Google Earth. Alviso anyone? The costs of new infrastructure pale in comparison to purchasing and leveling Great America. Plus, you wouldn't have to become the team that killed Batman.

Funny how Great America is a crappy park no one goes to when people are complaining about the stadiums neighbour, but a revenue generating landmark when discussing tearing it down.

Do you have ANY figures on what (if any) income the city receives from Great America? I would guess that the stadium authority stands to provide the city more revenue than a mediocre amusement park with a dubious safety record.

Also, while I think tearing it down would be the most likely option, lets also not ignore that the options are probably not limited to tearing it all down or leaving it all intact. If the niners had both, they could re-organize the park in a way to create more space for the stadium and parking without closing the park.

[FODY]

Great America is the redheaded stepchild of the group of parks that Cedar Fair bought from Paramount. It bleeds revenue, and attendance figures have dropped steadily over the last decade. In 1995, gate attendance hovered just below 20,000 on a regular operating day, and the numbers for holidays like Memorial Day and the big gun, Independence Day, routinely ran up in to the mid 30's. These days, they have trouble moving 20K even on the holiday schedules.

The point is, Cedar Fair has a lot to gain by stalling the stadium project in an effort to drive the price up and sell the park off as a separate entity, since they were basically forced to buy it from CBS in the first place as part of the Paramount Parks deal.

[arch]

I remember when I was a kid and Great America had all of the warner bros characters like bugs bunny and daffy duck. I liked it way better than Disneyland. (Only cause I didn't care about the disney cartoons at the time) I'd love to see them get involved again.

So your saying those characters aren't there anymore?? :down:

Haven't been to Great America since the 80s. :ph34r:

[FODY]

So your saying those characters aren't there anymore?? :down:
Nope. All the characters are from Nickelodeon kids' shows now.

[sandiegojoe]

So your saying those characters aren't there anymore?? :down:

Haven't been to Great America since the 80s. :ph34r:

it's been a few years, but I was under the impression that the WB characters left when Paramount took over. I could be wrong though. I just don't remember seeing them in years.

[smoking_rubber]

Batman is gone? :angry:

Yeah, tear it down. Build a race track! :racenana:

[Roaring Back]

it's been a few years, but I was under the impression that the WB characters left when Paramount took over. I could be wrong though. I just don't remember seeing them in years.

I believe the Warner Bros. characters left when Marriott originally sold the park. It hasn't been the same since.

[Coldrain85]

There's no way they buy the park and level it. Santa Clara would never go for it. That park is a landmark.

Nah, Coit Tower is a landmark. Great America is a revenue generator. Or is it?

They're going to tear down a cash generating tourist attraction to build a parking lot that gets 18-20 days of use per year?

None of us really know if Great America operates well into the black, or not. That info is only known by a privileged few. If it does get torn down, that land will be used for a lot more than parking lots. Mission College will be able to use some of that land, and there is also plenty of opportunity for development to help offset the costs. I don't see this happening, however.


Cedar Fair just wants out from in front of the train. A stadium in their parking lot limits their possibilities for growth and hurts their customer's parking situation. That's not BS.

One thing that needs to be considered is the time of year. How much business does Great America get from September - January? My guess is not very much. The kiddies are back in school by then, and I think the park can scale back it's share of the parking for those 8-10 days of the year when the 49ers have a home game or a playoff game. The fact that the stadium is next door may actually be a boon for Great America during that slow time of the year. Part of the family can go to the game, and others who are not interested can enjoy a day at Great America. They can meet up after the game is over. I think that would appeal to many.


Better option: Take the extra 100 mil they would have spent on Great America and select a better site. That extra 100 could go a long way to improving undesirable infrastructure and moving their HQ. I'm still partial to a location in the south bay since that's where all of their current employees reside.

I'm sure all of us are open to other suggestions. The greater Bay Area just doesn't have that many options. The Raiders are already stinking up the east bay, and Marin is definitely out of the question. All we have to work with is a small strip of land from Hunter's Point to San Jose that's bordered by 280 to the west, and SF Bay to the east.

There are plenty of suitable (size wise) locations within 10 miles of Great America. Just jump on Google Earth. Alviso anyone?

Indeed. There's plenty of open land around Alviso, but I suspect that environmental impact studies would not be favorable. There are a lot of wetlands around there, and getting permits to build on wetlands in CA is very difficult these days. Moffett Field would be a great spot, but a 5 year timetable to construct a stadium there is a long shot, simply because there has been no official discussion thus far. As for toxic waste issues, the site seems to be favorable according to the latest public health assessment. I included a link with a comprehensive report in case anyone is interested.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/HAC/pha/moffett/mof_p1.html

[smoking_rubber]

At one point in the not-so-distant past, the land Great America and the 49ers complex now sit on were wetlands. That whole area is landfill. Great America was a swampy patch of thickets before it was Great America!

The point is: we've been reclaiming that land for years. The inherent pitfalls of building on landfill or reclaimed swamp will still exist in Great America's parking lot. Not nearly as severe as it would be a the water's edge, but I'm not suggesting we build one that close to the water.

No one wants to kill the Brown-Boobied-Alviso-Buzzard . . . but surely they can spare 100 acres for a good cause?

The question is: how much $ could Alviso or Mountain View come up with? Not enough, would be the likely answer.

[Coldrain85]

At one point in the not-so-distant past, the land Great America and the 49ers complex now sit on were wetlands. That whole area is landfill. Great America was a swampy patch of thickets before it was Great America!

Things have really changed since then wrt environmental policies regarding wetlands. There's a lot more red tape now then there was 25 years ago. The point you make about landfill is definitely something to consider though. Reclaimed land liquefies during a major earthquake, and the foundation of the stadium has to be reinforced in order to stand a chance of coming out of it in one piece. I wasn't aware that the land around Great America is reclaimed. Are you sure? I thought that all of the reclaimed land in that area is north of 237.

The question is: how much $ could Alviso or Mountain View come up with? Not enough, would be the likely answer.

Incorporating Great America with the stadium deal may change all that. If they can turn the entire property into a revenue generating machine, I don't see how the city could say no. Tax revenue alone would account for several million dollars annually. They would make their money back on a 9 figure investment fairly quickly. An amusement park and a stadium on the same property makes a lot of sense. The stadium will be a big draw for more than just football. It will be a very desirable place for concerts and other events. A whole lot better than McAfee Coliseum, or whatever they're calling it these days. Having the amusement park a monorail ride away means that a lot of people will hit both in the same day. I saw the Grateful Dead in 1991 at Cal Expo during the state fair. It was pretty cool having both going on right next to each other. This would be on an even larger scale, and I think it would appeal to many. The added cost of purchasing Great America may take care of itself. We'll see.

[mike49r#1]

maybe the team will get a new stadioum when they become a superbowl calibur team and start winning again

[FODY]

maybe the team will get a new stadioum when they become a superbowl calibur team and start winning again

Maybe the team will become a Super Bowl caliber team and start winning again when they get a new stadium...








:fishing:

[smoking_rubber]

Rolling two attractions in one makes some sense. One example: I always try to get Lakers tickets during the West-Tek convention in LA. The convention runs for about 4 days so I can usually find a home game during that span. Then we get a few guys together and go to the convention during the day and the game that night. Makes for a pretty cool trip. For us, it kills two birds with one stone.

In Santa Clara, Dad could drop the rug-rats off at the park while he attends the 1pm game . . . when the game is over, Dad meets up with them to finish the evening off. Could be worked out.

Even if the stadium is built a mile away, the same agenda would be feasible.

[smoking_rubber]

The point you make about landfill is definitely something to consider though. Reclaimed land liquefies during a major earthquake, and the foundation of the stadium has to be reinforced in order to stand a chance of coming out of it in one piece. I wasn't aware that the land around Great America is reclaimed. Are you sure? I thought that all of the reclaimed land in that area is north of 237.


I don't know what the legal definition of "reclaimed" land is. That land was a boggy marsh 30 years ago. It's been filled in and paved over now. There are sections of Great America where you can still see the marshes. It clearly has enough bedrock underneath to support large hotels and roller coasters, so it's not completely unstable.

The land north of 237 could be promising. There are plenty of open areas and now that 237 is better connected with 880, access should be a breeze. Back before anyone recycled, there were 3 or 4 dumps located in that area. Now they're parks or something, but the idea of landfill should be discussed. Does Santa Clara city limits end at 237 or do they extend to the bay?

I like the Moffett idea, but switching cities at this point would be rough. The deal would have to involve the Air Force, NASA (I believe they have part of the base) and a whole new city council. That may be more than the York's are willing to bite off. Plus, with all of the politicians they've pissed off lately, it would be amazing to see them get anywhere with a federal agency involved.

[Sourdough]

I like Moffett as well.....

[Texicali blue]

Lets move the team to Arkansas.

How about Alcatraz?

[5RINGS]

What if the Niners bought Great America and turned it into an NFL theme park? I can see that working. Football themed attractions and rides. Special player appearances, NFL Mascots and Cheerleaders walking around, A Tailgate style food court, the possibilities are endless!
Just a thought.
Or keep it just as a 49er theme park and bring back Frontier Village!

[Teke]

What if the Niners bought Great America and turned it into an NFL theme park? I can see that working. Football themed attractions and rides. Special player appearances, NFL Mascots and Cheerleaders walking around, A Tailgate style food court, the possibilities are endless!
Just a thought.
Or keep it just as a 49er theme park and bring back Frontier Village!

The Michael Vick ride sponsered by Nike will be closed while we update it with the Pit Bull Room.

[krueger70]

What if the Niners bought Great America and turned it into an NFL theme park? I can see that working. Football themed attractions and rides. Special player appearances, NFL Mascots and Cheerleaders walking around, A Tailgate style food court, the possibilities are endless!
Just a thought.
Or keep it just as a 49er theme park and bring back Frontier Village!Impossible, the 49ers could pay for a stadium in San Francisco for about the same cost, plus Jerry Jones would never allow the league to approve such an idea unless he get's a cut!