best blitzing D/best secondary? [Archive] - 49ers Message Board Community

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the snowman

11-06-2007, 12:40 PM

blitz= Giants,pitsburg,indi
secondary=baltamore(when healthy),pitts,washington,49ers(best thing going for us)

winorlose

11-06-2007, 01:47 PM

I don't know about secondary but I really like what the Giants are doing on the line. Makes me wonder how long it'll be until other teams give this a shot.

Hobbes2d

11-06-2007, 02:18 PM

Best blitzers = Pittsburgh, Philly (when healthy), SD

Secondary = Philly (when healthy), NE (when healthy) Baltimore (when healthy)

RedskinsFan86

11-06-2007, 02:24 PM

Best blitzers = Pittsburgh, Philly (when healthy), SD

Secondary = Philly (when healthy), NE (when healthy) Baltimore (when healthy)
Philly? Are you kidding? Sean Considine?

Redskins secondary > Eagles secondary, and it's not really close, not even Tom Brady passed deep over the middle of us

Hobbes2d

11-06-2007, 02:56 PM

Philly? Are you kidding? Sean Considine?

Redskins secondary > Eagles secondary, and it's not really close, not even Tom Brady passed deep over the middle of us

Right the Redskins secondary, how bout no.

Philly has 2 pro bowl CB's but they're always hurt and one of the best Safeties in the NFL in Dawkins. Again they're always hurt, but when healthy they are one of the best.

SBbound49ers

11-06-2007, 03:01 PM

Colts?........They dont rush more than 4.

PIT is the best blitzing team.

Best secondary, not sure, I'll go with a sleep pick and say GB. Their CBs have shutdown most WRs they've played and the safety play hasnt even been that good.

RedskinsFan86

11-06-2007, 03:18 PM

Right the Redskins secondary, how bout no.

Philly has 2 pro bowl CB's but they're always hurt and one of the best Safeties in the NFL in Dawkins. Again they're always hurt, but when healthy they are one of the best.
Convincing argument there- "how bout no." I'm maybe the biggest Dawkins fan on this board, and a big Lito Sheppard fan, but that's about all they have. Considine sucks and Sheldon Brown is only ok. You're acting like you're unaware that LaRon Landry and Sean Taylor exist on the same team, and a nickel package of Shawn Springs, Carlos Rogers, and Fred Smoot isn't pretty dang good.

The Redskins had the best passing defense in the NFC using a mostly 4-man rush before they faced the Patriots, and even now with the Patriots game factored in they're still ranked better than the Eagles.

Bottom line- Eagles don't have the best secondary in the NFC East, let alone one of the best in the NFL, and I don't think many Eagles fans would even argue with that.

ninersfan68

11-06-2007, 06:10 PM

Steelers easy

Sac-King_916

11-07-2007, 01:29 AM

Convincing argument there- "how bout no." I'm maybe the biggest Dawkins fan on this board, and a big Lito Sheppard fan, but that's about all they have. Considine sucks and Sheldon Brown is only ok. You're acting like you're unaware that LaRon Landry and Sean Taylor exist on the same team, and a nickel package of Shawn Springs, Carlos Rogers, and Fred Smoot isn't pretty dang good.

The Redskins had the best passing defense in the NFC using a mostly 4-man rush before they faced the Patriots, and even now with the Patriots game factored in they're still ranked better than the Eagles.

Bottom line- Eagles don't have the best secondary in the NFC East, let alone one of the best in the NFL, and I don't think many Eagles fans would even argue with that.

Gotta agree with you here, the Redskins secondary is much better then the Eagles. I'd put the Broncos secondary somewhere along the top also with a healthy Champ Bailey.

Lionsfan

11-07-2007, 05:48 AM

I admit, I have only watched one Bronco's game but their secondary did not impress me.

Best Secondary - 1. Redskins 2. Ravens 3. Green Bay

Best Blitzing team 1. Steelers 2. Giants

badass316

11-07-2007, 10:00 AM

Philly? Are you kidding? Sean Considine?

Redskins secondary > Eagles secondary, and it's not really close, not even Tom Brady passed deep over the middle of us

Uhhh... Philly has 2 pro bowl CBs in Lito and Sheldon, and a pro bowl safety in Bdawk. I'd say they have one of the best secondaries in the NFL when healthy.

SBbound49ers

11-07-2007, 10:20 AM

Uhhh... Philly has 2 pro bowl CBs in Lito and Sheldon, and a pro bowl safety in Bdawk. I'd say they have one of the best secondaries in the NFL when healthy.

Lito and Sheldon are both inconsistent and Dawkins hasnt been healthy this year. Their secondary is not even top 15 right now.

badass316

11-07-2007, 10:23 AM

Pass Rush
1) Bolts - when Merriman and Phillips are both healthy
2) Giants - Osi, Mr. Gap Tooth, Tuck and Kiwanuka
3) Steelers - Very good LBs and James Harrison? Who? :yikes:
4) Pats - great LBs combined with great schemes
5) Bears - Very good DEs, and a guy by the name of Tommy Harris.

Honorary mention - Eagles and Ravens

Secondary
1) Broncos - Champ and Bly = best CB tandem
2) Packers - Harris and Woodson = 2nd best CB tandem
3) Pats - Sante and Hobbs at the corner, Harrison and Wilson at safety
4) Eagles - when healthy, Lito and Sheldon at CB and Dawk at safety
5) Ravens - when healthy, CMac at CB, and Ed Reezy and Dawan at safety, would be higher if Rolle didn't suck so much... ****

Honorary mention - Indy (Bob Sanders' Colts) and Skins

badass316

11-07-2007, 10:24 AM

Lito and Sheldon are both inconsistent and Dawkins hasnt been healthy this year. Their secondary is not even top 15 right now.

Lito has been hurt, that I know. I'm not too sure about Sheldon, but if he's not hurt he's an excellent #2 and can be a #1 on a handful of teams.

SBbound49ers

11-07-2007, 10:43 AM

IND has a very underrated secondary....

Hayden, Jennings, Jackson, Hughes at CB and Bethea and Sanders at S. They're all solid and they have depth, Jackson can move to safety if needed.

RedskinsFan86

11-07-2007, 02:02 PM

Uhhh... Philly has 2 pro bowl CBs in Lito and Sheldon, and a pro bowl safety in Bdawk. I'd say they have one of the best secondaries in the NFL when healthy. Alright....

Landry + Taylor > Dawkins + Considine...(and a lot of that is because Considine absolutely sucks) that's not even a debate, it's hard to argue against it now and will be near impossible by next year once Landry gets more comfortable

The corners are a little trickier, but really Lito's the only thing they have and he certainly has off games. Carlos Rogers, before he got hurt against the Pats, was easily just as good as Sheldon Brown, Fred Smoot's been playing very well for us so far this year, and Shawn Springs, although losing a step is still a very good and physical corner as well. In terms of a healthy nickle package, Skins take the edge, in terms of just starting corners, I'd say it's a push.

The Eagles haven't played the Patriots yet, so the Skins' pass defense rankings compared to them is a little unfair due to having to face Tom Brady's train of pain, but even then the Skins have the 3rd lowest yards per completion in the NFL with 5.9, while the Eagles come in at 7.6 at 25th place. Keep in mind as well, the Redskins built their defense from the secondary in, so the key strength is our secondary, while the Eagles rely on a heavier front 4 pass rush including Trent Cole who has 9 sacks so far this season. The Skins don't have anyone outside of Andre Carter to really rush the passer in the front line.

knobs27

11-07-2007, 02:07 PM

the 49ers would have one of the better secondaries in the NFL is Harris wasn't getting lit up on virtually every play. what a major dropoff from last year to this.

RedskinsFan86

11-07-2007, 02:09 PM

the 49ers would have one of the better secondaries in the NFL is Harris wasn't getting lit up on virtually every play. what a major dropoff from last year to this.
Let's be honest, Harris was never that good to begin with. He wasn't good with the Bears, or the Colts, or the Redskins, and then he had a good year last year. He was a solid nickel back in D.C., but that was always about it.

knobs27

11-07-2007, 02:16 PM

Let's be honest, Harris was never that good to begin with. He wasn't good with the Bears, or the Colts, or the Redskins, and then he had a good year last year. He was a solid nickel back in D.C., but that was always about it.

no, i can't agree. in Washington and in Sf he had 1 real good year with each team. the problem is the other years.

the sad thing for the 49ers is all we need him to be is decent and our secondary would be stellar. its sad that he isn't even decent, he is terrible this year. but like noted, having 0 pass rush doesn't help things.

knobs27

11-07-2007, 02:20 PM

no, i can't agree. in Washington and in Sf he had 1 real good year with each team. the problem is the other years.

the sad thing for the 49ers is all we need him to be is decent and our secondary would be stellar. its sad that he isn't even decent, he is terrible this year. but like noted, having 0 pass rush doesn't help things.

let me add it probably doesn't help Harris that last year it was Spencer getting picked on so he could take more chances. and this year teams avoid Clements and are clearly targeting and picking on Harris.

badass316

11-07-2007, 03:42 PM

Alright....

Landry + Taylor > Dawkins + Considine...(and a lot of that is because Considine absolutely sucks) that's not even a debate, it's hard to argue against it now and will be near impossible by next year once Landry gets more comfortable

I won't argue that the Skin's safeties are better than the eagles which they are. I haven't seen Considine much this year but from what your implying he's probably the worst safety in the league which I highly doubt. He may not be very good, but can't be very bad as well considering they haven't benched him.

The corners are a little trickier, but really Lito's the only thing they have and he certainly has off games. Carlos Rogers, before he got hurt against the Pats, was easily just as good as Sheldon Brown, Fred Smoot's been playing very well for us so far this year, and Shawn Springs, although losing a step is still a very good and physical corner as well. In terms of a healthy nickle package, Skins take the edge, in terms of just starting corners, I'd say it's a push.

Corners are a no contest to me. The skins are not comparable to the eagles when healthy, you can bring up the nickel situation just to try to add some sort of argument but as far as starters go the eagles clearly have the better duo. Last year if you bring up the nickel backs the eagles would have had the upper hand, but Rod Hood is in Arizona now. Rogers is good, he is not playing like a top 10 pick CB should. Springs is good but not very good as you imply. Smoot is a nickel back so you expect he'll at least be able to cover the other teams #3. Lito is a Pro Bowl caliber CB and you can make the same case for Brown who was snubbed a couple of pro bowl appearances already. I think your overrating your CBs a little which I can't blame you for since your a skins fan.

The Eagles haven't played the Patriots yet, so the Skins' pass defense rankings compared to them is a little unfair due to having to face Tom Brady's train of pain, but even then the Skins have the 3rd lowest yards per completion in the NFL with 5.9, while the Eagles come in at 7.6 at 25th place. Keep in mind as well, the Redskins built their defense from the secondary in, so the key strength is our secondary, while the Eagles rely on a heavier front 4 pass rush including Trent Cole who has 9 sacks so far this season. The Skins don't have anyone outside of Andre Carter to really rush the passer in the front line.

It's kind of pointless to compare statistics when the eagles secondary have been banged up for more than half of the season. They didn't have Lito for 4 games as well as dawkins. So not having your #1 CB and your best safety will obviously have some sort of effect to their defense. Just ask the Broncos when they didn't have Champ for 1 game and the Ravens for not having CMac.

And lets not try put any sympathy on your pass rush not being able to help your secondary. The skins have generated 20 sacks this season, which is more than both the Bolts and Ravens have. The eagles have 24 which is only 4 more than the skins so lets not say the skins CBs have been sitting ducks for teams to pick apart which they haven't.

Sac-King_916

11-07-2007, 04:44 PM

Top 5 Blitzing (Not in order):

Pittsburgh - Whoever they want it seems like
NY Giants - Kiwanuka, Umenyiora & Strahan are a nasty combo
San Diego - Merriman & Phillips both very good rushers
Chicago - Harris, Anderson, Ogunleye & Urlacher can all blitz the QB
Indy - Mathis & Freeney two great speed rushers

Top 5 Secondary (Not in order):

Green Bay - Harris & Woodson two good veteran CB's
Denver - Bailey & Bly probabaly the best duo mainly due to Champ
Baltimore - C-Mac, Reed & Landry when they're healthy they're great
New England - Samuel & whoever they want excellent sheme
Dallas - Henry & Newman mixed with two hard hitters at Saftey they're pretty good

The Mullet

11-07-2007, 04:48 PM

The Mullet

11-07-2007, 04:49 PM

Trap_Star

11-07-2007, 04:50 PM

Is'nt "blitzing" putting pressure on the QB with defenders other than the D-linemen?

SBbound49ers

11-07-2007, 04:51 PM

Is'nt "blitzing" putting pressure on the QB with defenders other than the D-linemen?

Yeah. Not sure why people have listed cover 2 teams.

Trap_Star

11-07-2007, 04:52 PM

Yeah. Not sure why people have listed cover 2 teams.

that's exactly what im trying to figure out. :wacko:

badass316

11-07-2007, 05:07 PM

Right now the best secondarys are:

Packers
Broncos (when healthy, need Safety help)
Redskins

Baltimore is most over-rated even when healthy in the NFL. Fact is that S. Rolle is a HUGE liability

I think we have the talent to be #1, but we don't execute to that level

Uhhhhhhhh..... No. I need 10 more shots of vodka to agree with you. Nate Clements is not the greatest CB of all time.

Sac-King_916

11-07-2007, 05:10 PM

We are better than Dallas, I do believe that...

Sorry, no.

Sac-King_916

11-07-2007, 05:14 PM

Is'nt "blitzing" putting pressure on the QB with defenders other than the D-linemen?

Let's not nit pick :laugh:

The Mullet

11-07-2007, 07:42 PM

Uhhhhhhhh..... No. I need 10 more shots of vodka to agree with you. Nate Clements is not the greatest CB of all time.

Didn't say he was, but we have 3 pro bowlers back there, out of 4 players, and 2 multiple PBs

Sac-King_916

11-07-2007, 11:09 PM

Didn't say he was, but we have 3 pro bowlers back there, out of 4 players, and 2 multiple PBs

I wouldn't label Michael Lewis or Nate Clements a pro bowler. Michael Lewis made the pro bowl 3 years ago and hasn't been back since. Clements was an injury fill in for Chris McAlister 3 years ago and he also hasn't been back since. If you're going to label someone a pro bowl caliber player I would at least imagine the've made the pro bowl more then once. Seriously, it's like calling Chris Chambers a pro bowler.

SB49er4life

11-07-2007, 11:29 PM

the 49ers would have one of the better secondaries in the NFL is Harris wasn't getting lit up on virtually every play. what a major dropoff from last year to this.

We knew that was gonna happen, though; Walt Harris was an above average CB his whole career, good but not great, and just had himself an amazing year in the twilight of his career, thanks in large part to his head for the game and nuances he'd picked up after a lifetime of playing football.

Walt Harris is like Larry Allen; we should be thankful we even got THAT much for them, because truth is, they both should have been washed up last year.

SB49er4life

11-07-2007, 11:33 PM

I wouldn't label Michael Lewis or Nate Clements a pro bowler. Michael Lewis made the pro bowl 3 years ago and hasn't been back since. Clements was an injury fill in for Chris McAlister 3 years ago and he also hasn't been back since. If you're going to label someone a pro bowl caliber player I would at least imagine the've made the pro bowl more then once. Seriously, it's like calling Chris Chambers a pro bowler.

Not really. When you say a player is playing at a "Pro Bowl level", you are talking about how he is playing that season. It's not like you're calling him a perennial Pro-Bowler.

For example, if Mark Roman goes to say, the Bills, and has himself a 9 INT year, he was playing at a Pro-Bowl level; he doesn't need to go there year in, year out, to justify one specific year of playing.

As far as Nate Clements... he is Pro-Bowl material depending on who you ask. If you ask a casual fan, they would tell you "NO", because he doesn't have the precious INT's to back it up. But if you ask anyone whose paid attention to him shut down the best WR's in the league week in, week out, and see big plays that he makes in run support and close games, you'd get an emphatic "YES".

Sac-King_916

11-07-2007, 11:38 PM

Not really. When you say a player is playing at a "Pro Bowl level", you are talking about how he is playing that season. It's not like you're calling him a perennial Pro-Bowler.

For example, if Mark Roman goes to say, the Bills, and has himself a 9 INT year, he was playing at a Pro-Bowl level; he doesn't need to go there year in, year out, to justify one specific year of playing.

As far as Nate Clements... he is Pro-Bowl material depending on who you ask. If you ask a casual fan, they would tell you "NO", because he doesn't have the precious INT's to back it up. But if you ask anyone whose paid attention to him shut down the best WR's in the league week in, week out, and see big plays that he makes in run support and close games, you'd get an emphatic "YES".

By that I assume you mean 9er fans :laugh:

EDIT: As far as the pro bowl thing. If you want to call Micahel Lewis and Nate Clements pro bowlers, go ahead, be my guest. Just take note that they haven't as you say "played at a pro bowl level" for going on 3 years now.

SB49er4life

11-07-2007, 11:40 PM

By that I assume you mean 9er fans :laugh:

Well, in the sense that nobody outside of the 49ers fan base could give 2 ****s about our secondary and Nate Clements... yes, I do.

Either way, if you pay attention, it's not hard to see how much work Clements has put in, stats aside.

badass316

11-08-2007, 10:46 AM

Didn't say he was, but we have 3 pro bowlers back there, out of 4 players, and 2 multiple PBs

:backtoglory49:

2 Multiple PBs! ROFL! I suggest you actually research this topic before making such statements.

Saying Walt Harris is a Pro-Bowl CB is like saying Fred Thomas is All-Pro :laugh: Same with Michael Lewis.

Clements has been to the Pro-Bowl 1 time as in injury alternate to CMac when he got hurt. No one in our secondary has an All-Pro under their belt not even a 2nd team choice. And if I'm not mistaken Harris was also an alternate last year for someone who didn't go. Seriously him making the Pro-Bowl instead of Al Harris and Woodson was :wacko:

badass316

11-08-2007, 10:51 AM

As far as Nate Clements... he is Pro-Bowl material depending on who you ask. If you ask a casual fan, they would tell you "NO", because he doesn't have the precious INT's to back it up. But if you ask anyone whose paid attention to him shut down the best WR's in the league week in, week out, and see big plays that he makes in run support and close games, you'd get an emphatic "YES".

Go tell that to Marques Colston, Lance Moore, and David Patten apparently they didn't get the memo.

ninersfan68

11-08-2007, 11:25 AM

i already said, it was PITT